This week's episode delves into the captivating journey of my mother's path to sobriety. From Lerene's early memories growing up in the pub culture of 1970s London to navigating the lively party scene of the 1980s, my mother shares her experiences of being a part of an era defined by its social indulgences. My mum reflects on her own journey, where the lines between social drinking and dependency became blurred, leading to moments of introspection and realization. However, it was a profound turning point in her life when her best friend was diagnosed with cancer, serving as a wake-up call that prompted her to reevaluate her relationship with alcohol.
We also get into:
To connect with Nadine:
Resources from the Episode:
FREEBIE Beginner’s Guide to Dry January (e-book)
FREEBIE Guide to Quitting Alcohol - 30 Day Transformation (course)
Partners:
Use Code TSB23 for 25% off your order
Free 30 Day Trial
https://www.audibletrial.com/tsb24
Thanks for tuning in! New episodes premiere every Wednesday !
Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services refereed to in this episode.
This week's episode delves into the captivating journey of my mother's path to sobriety. From Lerene's early memories growing up in the pub culture of 1970s London to navigating the lively party scene of the 1980s, my mother shares her experiences of being a part of an era defined by its social indulgences. My mum reflects on her own journey, where the lines between social drinking and dependency became blurred, leading to moments of introspection and realization. However, it was a profound turning point in her life when her best friend was diagnosed with cancer, serving as a wake-up call that prompted her to reevaluate her relationship with alcohol.
We also get into:
To connect with Nadine:
Resources from the Episode:
FREEBIE Beginner’s Guide to Dry January (e-book)
FREEBIE Guide to Quitting Alcohol - 30 Day Transformation (course)
Partners:
Use Code TSB23 for 25% off your order
Free 30 Day Trial
https://www.audibletrial.com/tsb24
Thanks for tuning in! New episodes premiere every Wednesday !
Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services refereed to in this episode.
Hello, hello and welcome to the Sober Butterfly Your sober resource for Inspo Stories, lifestyle, and Travel. It is I, Nadine Mulvina, your host, and I'm joined today with a very special guest. I've been hoping to get this person onto the podcast. I. Since I started the podcast and without further ado, I have my mom here, miss Lerene Gooden. Mommy, how are you? Hi. I am absolutely wonderful. Thank you for asking. Wow. I cannot believe this is happening. So for a little bit of context, I'm sober. I've been sober for two and a half years, and my mom. Lerene is also sober, so she's here to share a little bit of her story and journey to sobriety, and I'm really honored, seriously, mom, to have you on the show. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I know some of your history, but I would love for you to share some of your earliest moments or memories that you may have with drinking. So what did that look like growing up in the. What sixties? I hope I'm not aging too much, but the sixties, seventies. Okay. My mom was born in early sixties, but the seventies in London with Jamaican parents. My grandparents are both from Jamaica. Tell us a little bit about like that life experience mom. Growing up as a very young. Very early teenager. It was very common for our parents to, on a Sunday afternoon, they would take us to a local pub and we have lots of pubs in London and we would sit outside the pub with our popcorn and chips and peanuts while my parents were inside to drinking. And that was the beginning of knowing what alcohol was. And then if we were not at the pub, we would probably be at one of our relative's homes. And once again, it just involved, everybody was just drinking. It was just a normal pattern of behavior. Growing up as a child, it was just alcohol was just like drinking water. So I'm wondering, mommy, do you think that influence was more because our family's Jamaican? Or do you feel like that was just London culture as a whole growing up then? I think it's in a whole, in general, I'm not going to blame the Jamaicans'cause it's just as bad in England, because we had local pubs on every corner. We had Scottish, Irish, British people drinking every weekend, every day of the week, right At these pubs. It was just normal. Right, right. And I'm just wondering,'cause before backstage. Before we started recording, you had shown me a specific drink that adults used to purchase for their kids that had alcohol in it, correct? Yes. What is this drink? So it's. Called Cherry be. And it was very common at our weddings, any type of parties that we had, we were given these bottles of cherry bee. And in fact it was like drinking a glass of wine. But at the point, at that particular time, we just thought it was a little drink that they gave us. It was supposedly meant to be harmless. But if you really look at the ingredients and the alcohol level in the bottle, it was not. Made for children. Okay. It wasn't made for children? No. But it was only strictly drunk by children. Not only, but they used to give us a little bottle of this cherry bee. And so I think in society, the Europeans are seen as being more, what's the word I'm looking for? More open, when it comes to. Provisions around alcohol. So for example, like the European mentality is that, oh, if you expose your young to alcohol at an early age, there won't be such a fascination or curiosity about drinking and binging later in life. So I guess my question is, do you think that was the mentality that they had? Oh, if we expose our kids to alcohol at a young age, then it won't be such a fascination for them. In some respects that could possibly be true. However, I don't think they were looking at it in that manner. To them they found alcohol was innocent and it was just something that was pleasurable. They just wanted to share it with everybody. I don't think they realized there could be a danger or harm with this. Okay. Fair. Fair. So it's just like a symptom of the times basically. Yes. Got it. Okay. So growing up it was normalized for you, you saw everyone drinking, and then what did life look like when you were a bit older? So as we became teenagers and of age to actually be able to buy our own liquor. And how old was that by the way? In England? I would say between. 17. Yeah. It started at seventeens when it was legalized back then for us to be able to buy alcohol same as smoking. It was just a normal behavior we used to have parties and we called them bottle parties, meaning that somebody would be having a party at their house and it was a bottle party, meaning we had to bring a bottle of alcohol. Right. And that's what was considered a bottle party. And it was very common in my days of growing up. And this is how we started to drink. We just used to drink continuously until we were pretty much, we thought it was funny at the time until we was just, I wouldn't say unconscious, but we were drunk. That was like. Seventies. If I could go back to any time period, I think in the world I would want to spend a day in the 1980s in London. Like the height of your maybe party girl years. Can I say that? Party girl years? Yes, absolutely. Okay. So what was that like mom, growing up in London in the eighties? So if drinking was like normalized and a part of the culture, I am curious to know what that looked like and then also what things were more taboo that People were frowned upon for doing Yeah. So, a typical weekend for me would be to along with my sister, my older sister, that is, we would go to nightclubs. Every party that we went to involved alcohol some people were participating in some other drug taking. I would imagine. I actually had a friend of mine very close friend of mine. I was at school with her for my whole entire years. And when she had her first child, I had gone to visit her and. She was sitting down with I guess the tube of a pen and she was puffing with a lighter and I just had no idea what it was that she was doing. And I said to her, without mentioning names, what are you, whatcha doing? And she had just mentioned to me that if anybody ever gives you this, they are not your friend. I said, but what is this whatcha doing? And she said, this was chasing the dragon. And I'm like, I still was so dumb. I didn't even realize what she was talking about. And then she said, it's heroine. And I was just flabbergasted. I just could not believe this was my dear friend from school sitting down as she considers chasing the dragon at this point. She had children in the house and then she pretty much passed out. And I was so afraid. Because the children were there. And I called her mother and I said to her mom, I said, Hey your daughter is just passed out here with the kids. And her mother was totally aware of what she was doing. And she had just told me. just leave. Just go. You shouldn't be. Subject to this, you shouldn't have seen this. Just go, it's okay. So her mom was aware of her, so her mother was aware of, they didn't know how to deal with it. She had just told me to leave and that was pretty much the last time I associated with her because I didn't wanna indulge myself, you know, in that type of a situation. And with that type of a drug.'cause my drug was alcohol. Right. Right. So it sounds like there's two worlds kind of parallel this time. Like, so you have like the party scene, which is like still people drinking, but then you also have more of like an underground scene where people are doing more heavy drug usage. Absolutely, yes. Okay. And I definitely wasn't a part of the heavy drug taken, even though I knew people that did it, but that wasn't my thing. And what do you think. Kept you on the more of like the, I'm just here for a good time. I'm gonna only drink what kept you on that pathway? I don't know if I would be strong enough to stay away from that when it seems so alluring and especially when you know people who are also doing things like that. So what do you think kept you more grounded? I. I would definitely say the result of seeing their behavior after they indulged in those type of drugs. I saw that. It clearly, they just, I mean, being drunk, you're disorderly, but being high on heroin, you are passed out on the floor and am I like, I just didn't want any part of that. It's not attractive. No, it was absolutely not attractive. It actually was frightening. And I got afraid. And then I had seen other people that were doing what they called I guess it would be tripping. Like acid. Yes, acid. And their behavior was just frightening. It just scared me. I just didn't want any part of that. Was this a common, like if you went to like house parties and stuff? that's what I'm imagining. Is this, like, would you see it like a house party or is this like in the club? This is more in the, this is the club scene. Okay. House parties, you never really saw that. It was mainly people really just generally. Generally having been a good time drinking and dancing. Okay. But at the clubs now, this is where you saw that type of, people taking drugs. And what was the club scene like? I'm just curious, like what kind of music were people into at the time? Or what kind of scene were you on?'cause like there's different music scenes, so what were you into at this time? So I'm extremely versatile. I like anything from rock to reggae to garage. There was, I'm just mommy. I don't think people know what garage music is. It was an extremely fast paced electronic type of music and um, that's absolutely where you saw a lot of people taking drugs. Yeah. I feel like the same is true today. Yeah. Like the e that and that scene. Yes, absolutely. So I, I kind of withdrew from that type of, um, clubbing and just resorted to staying home. Or going, just sticking to house parties. Okay, so can I say this? I hope you're okay with me saying this. If not, I'll take it out. But, you're from a big family. You have. How many you have? Three sisters, two brothers. Mm-Hmm. And I think like out of the girls at least, you were considered the more of the, the rebel. I'll say it. Can I say that? Mm-Hmm. Is that true? Sure. Absolutely. You agree with me? Yes. Okay. I do. So what, what do you think made you more the rebel? looking back at my childhood, I don't think I was really, should have been called a rebel. I was a typical teenager. Mm-Hmm. And my parents were just beyond straight. Right. So we were not, we were not a allowed to do anything. And I just want you to be a teenager. Mm-Hmm. So, um. That's how I got the name. They just labeled me a rebel because I wanted to go out. It's not like I was doing anything really bad. Right. I just wanted to go out and have fun. Fair. Okay. And that's when you used to go out, you'd go to the clubs and stuff with your friends? Exactly, yes. Got it. Right. Yeah. And so they labeled me a rebel when in fact I just was a typical child. Okay. Got it. In a very strict, helpful. In extremely strict. Yes. The reason why I brought up the fact that you were considered kind of like the rebel in the family is because you moved out pretty young. Yes. What age did you move out? Um, I think I was probably. I mean 18. 18. Yeah. That is young, especially for the Times. Mm-Hmm. And for England,'cause it's such an expensive city, most people stay Yes. You know, living at home until they're 30 almost. So that's why I say like, I think you leaving at a young age was, or was it a result of how strict your family was? Absolutely. Definitely. And so that gave you more freedom, I'm assuming, to Absolutely. Go off and do your own thing. Yes. So what was the height,, of your drinking or your partying? And what changed for you? Okay, so this was just pretty much a normal way of living for me. I pretty much drank all through my twenties and my thirties, even my forties I just used to drink because I just was grown up thinking this was the most normal thing to do, and I just drank out of just drinking, just not even,, thinking that there was anything wrong with drinking. After I had my child, which is Nadine, who is the host of the show. Oh, thanks mom. And I guess, you know, the first couple of years of being a parent, you are actually just a stay home mom and you find yourself drinking. So I would drink, um, because I couldn't go out and then. Without even realizing, you know, that you woke up with a headache and then you realized that you had drunk off a whole bottle and you didn't even realize. I wanna just highlight something really quickly. I think it's important to note that you being a new mom as well as. Coupled with the fact that you, my dad got a divorce probably had an impact on your mental health and your stress levels, right? Like that's har hard to raise kid by yourself. Oh, absolutely. I was extremely stressed. So I, I just want to emphasize that.'cause I'm, I think it's important to like share that part of the story too so people know like you were under tremendous amount of stress when was under, when you doing this under Yes I have. And also you as like listeners. Like, my mom also got married very young. I did, yes. So, yeah, just to pick up from there, I wanted to also include that,'cause I think that's important for you to recognize, and there were other factors. With the breakup of course, that I really don't wish to discuss. That caused a lot of mental stress for me. So, um, yeah, I started to drink a little more. After you had gone to bed, that's when I would drink myself to sleep. I wasn't on the road drinking and driving, but that became a habit it sounds like, you know, you went through your party girl years, who hasn't. Then you had me, it turned more into like a, that's mommy wine drinking culture. It sounds like to me, like a lot of mothers feel the stress of motherhood and they drink to compensate for some of that. Towards the end of your drinking career. How were you using alcohol and do you feel like you ever hit a quote unquote rock bottom? So, yeah, absolutely. I do feel that I did hit a rock bottom, and it was during the beginning of Covid once again, a lot of stress. Took place at the beginning of Covid. I lost my job after many years, so of course I started drinking with the shutdown. There was nothing more to do, but to drink. And then during this time, my very close friend was diagnosed with, a very serious illness. And that was just a rude awakening for me. This was a friend that I used to work out with. We used to drink together, we did everything together, and then all of a sudden she had a critical illness that literally we could have killed her. And the main thing that she had to change was her diets. And I wanted to take that road with her. So I decided to cut out my alcohol. That's amazing. I did not even slow down. I literally just put the bottle down and I've never picked it up again. And I think that's such a testament to. Your willpower, by the way. I'm not recommending that people necessarily follow that path that my mom took.'cause to be honest with you, mom, I don't know how you went from being a daily drinker, especially in covid to full stop quitting overnight. I think a lot of people can't do that, and that's obviously like. Amazing. I also wanna just let people know, like you did the same thing from smoking cigarettes. I did, yes. My mom smoked cigarettes For how long before? Like 30 years. And I took my last puff one day after I had a serious, diagnosed of bronchitis and I just put that cigarette down and I never picked it up to this day. No patches, no gum. No patches, no gum. I put the cigarette down and I've never picked it up since, and it's been over 25 years. So once again, not recommending that per se,'cause I don't know. If many people could do that, have that strength or that willpower. But what I know the what I know like the reason why you quit drinking and why you quit smoking, but how, like what was going through your mind, I guess, in that process of saying, okay, I'm done. I have a physical dependence on this, but I'm still going to just say no more. Once again, I think it was the diagnosis of my friend. When I realized, well, such that she had been diagnosed with a such a, can I just say she had cancer? Yeah. And I was just flabbergasted. I was just in shock. I just could not believe my dear friend. Had cancer. So it was almost like mortality staring at you. Yes, and it was a rude awakening. I realized that things have gotta change, you know, because I'm older than her, by the way, and I just thought, well, I'm very lucky that I got to my age and I was not the one that was diagnosed with cancer. So the few years that I have left, I just wanna make them as clean as possible. I love that. I love that. I think that, going back to the Covid thing, so. My mom and I, we lived together for maybe a month in the pandemic in the beginning, and it was a tumultuous time for both of us. I felt like it put a strain on our relationship. First of all, going back to live with your parents after, you know, so long is in, in and of itself stressful. But I think to your point. You losing your job? Me trying to work from home. Another contention between us was that I, and I think I've shared this on the show before, but I was still going out, like, don't, I don't wanna say, don't ask me where I wasn't going to the club obviously because it wasn't open, but I was going to friends' houses and I was drinking daily. So both of our drinking probably was at a pinnacle during the. Pandemic and it manifested differently. I felt like your drinking was more depressive, like you would often just be in your room and wouldn't come out. I couldn't, there was nowhere to go. But even within the home? Yeah. Like you were just in the confi, like you would be in the dark basically, kind of thing? Yeah, because it was very difficult because. Nadine was still working, so I was kind of confided to the bedroom because you was working in the front room. Well, that's true. I also think though, like you were obsessing over the news and it was a lot of like, I don't know, like fearmongering from the news. Yeah. Like I just felt like. It was difficult. And I'm not blaming you, like of course you should stay well versed about what's going on with the pandemic. But at the same time, I was taking the anti approach of that. Like I was like, I see how depressed my mom is. I don't wanna be like that. So I was taking the opposite take, which I don't know if that was the best in hindsight decision for myself, but it was like I wanted to be out of the house as much as possible. I was going to my friend's house and like I would just drink over there. So I was being a social drinker, like a subgroup of people I hung out with. I wasn't just hanging out with random people every day. But that was like my drinking crew. And then I'd come back and you would be like, passed out from your drinking and it just was not a good mix. But you found your way, as did I, kind of took us on different journeys. And I'm sorry that it was the diagnosis of your friend's cancer that showed you the light, but your friend is akay now. Yes. And B, there's beauty in that, you know, discovery because you were able to reach sobriety, And now a quick word from our partners. It really feels like you're having a moment, pun intended. When you're sipping on the lovely and refreshing moment. Now, what I love about moment is that not only does it taste delicious, I have my favorite flavors. I love the blood orange. I love the spicy mango, but it's also good for you, which is exactly what I need in my life right now as I'm in my early. 30s. It's infused with L theanine, which is great for mental clarity. It also is packed with ashwagandha, which is great for helping to fight stress. It's made with all of these natural botanicals, which really enhances your vitality. It does not contain any added sugar. It's caffeine and of course alcohol free and you can purchase it in still or sparkling. 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Yeah, I would imagine the last day of my drinking would've been January, 2022. And was there anything remarkable about that day? Um, yeah, I left um, a quarter, a bottle in the bottle. I didn't finish it. Interesting. Yes. So were you at home or were you at someone's house? How did that work? I was actually in the process of moving and I had gone to stay my last day in the area that I was staying at and I had brought that drink with me'cause I was still adamant about, I'm not throwing any alcohol away. Mm-Hmm. I brought it with me. I just never drank it. While I was there, I got up in the morning and hit the road and I just left that bottle there and I never looked back at any alcohol ever again. Wow. And so how has your life, or has your life changed since giving up alcohol? I hate to say giving a about alcohol. That sounds depressing. Like liberating yourself from alcohol. I actually don't even understand to this day why I was drinking. There was just no benefit whatsoever. I don't have any headaches The funny thing is I always use alcohol for sleep. I thought I couldn't sleep if I didn't have a drink. Mm. That's common. I feel like a lot people and Yes, absolutely. And after, not drinking, I realized I actually have a better quality of sleep. Yeah. I sleep way better than I did when I had alcohol in me. I hear that a lot. I didn't so much use it. To sleep. I think I mainly used alcohol to numb and to be social, but I think the quality of sleep, obviously you're right, improves. I, I see it as like you're not passing out because how many times can you reminisce or think back to using alcohol to. Quote unquote sleep, and then realizing like, oh, I don't remember actually falling sleep. Well, yeah, I mean, there are times when I was drinking, and living alone has a lot to do with it, and that's actually even worse because when you are drinking by yourself, you are not speaking to anybody. Mm-Hmm. So if the phone rang and you started to speak, it's at that moment you realize that you're drunk. Oh my God. That would drive me crazy. Yeah. You don't even know that you're drunk until somebody had called you. Perhaps because you're not sitting there talking to yourself. Um, I can relate to that. And then perhaps the phone would ring, and then when you answer the phone, that's when you're slurring. And then you say to yourself, oh my God, I'm really drunk. And I would not have been aware of that if that phone had not rung. You said something really important though, and I do think the loneliness piece, living alone and being like lonely. Like you look for that connection and so drinking like, oh, you're like, oh, you're less inhibited, so you wanna connect to people and call them and you don't think you've been drinking of course, but, or you have been drinking. You don't think that you're drunk. That's right. But then when you cool someone. AKA me, I would immediately know when you'd been drinking. Yes, absolutely. And it would just drive me up the wall. Yes. but that's not a place of judgment. That is just something that we noted and we worked through that. Like we even set boundaries. Like I would be like, please don't call me if you've been drinking, even if you think that you are not drunk.'cause I could tell, as I'm sure you could tell, if I called you and I'd been drinking and that's exactly what I'm, that's what I'm getting at. When you drink by yourself, you really don't know that you're drunk. Yeah. I, I, so when I picked the phone up, I didn't even realize I was drunk until I actually spoke. Yeah, I see. I see. Right. Yeah. Oh,'cause you weren't like actually speaking. Yeah.'cause I wasn't talking. I might pick the phone up thinking in my mind. Okay, let me just call Nadine. Oh, I see. Yeah. But I don't know that I'm drunk until I actually start speaking. No, that makes sense. I, I could, that makes sense to me. I, I felt like I, in Covid. Definitely used to drink alone.'cause I lived alone too. but in general I think I was more of a social drinker and so I would know when I was drunk. I think there was one time actually where I did an Instagram live with a friend and I was drunk and you. The next day was like furious. You were like, yes. You were like, you have to take that down. You were so drunk'cause you watched it. And I was, I didn't know I was drunk. I was just probably spilling all of the tea, telling all of my, my, my business, for everyone to see on Instagram. So yeah, I definitely can relate to that. okay. So kind of wrapping up and winding down here, mom, so better quality sleep has been a benefit for you. What other benefits have your relationships changed? I think personally. Injecting myself here. Our relationship has definitely grown stronger since we're both sober. Would you agree with that? Oh yeah, absolutely. I think my, relationship with everybody and everything has changed. the point and the key of this, um, I have no regrets becoming sober as it's called. Are you air quoing sobriety? No, I'm not. I'm just saying that, you know, I don't miss it. I can walk past a liquor store with no problem. You could drink as much beer or alcohol in front of me. It doesn't entice me. I don't get temptation. I can pour you a drink. Um. I had a relative that came to visit me, by the way. And because she realized that I wasn't drinking, she was afraid to drink, and then she called me to the corner and she just said, look, I know you're not drinking. Do you mind if I have a drink? And I felt insulted. Yeah. I've, I've gotten the same question. I think people mean well by it. Yeah. But I can see Why did you feel insult? Insult? I can share why I get kind of like. Annoyed. I wouldn't say insulted, but I'm like, I'm not condemning alcohol. It's just a choice that I made not to drink. If you want to drink and you're gonna stay, you know, without getting drunk, I don't have a problem with that. I. And I don't feel that you need to hide your drinking in front of me if you feel free to have a drink. I, I'm not feeling bad or tempted. I'm a grown woman. If I wanted to pick up a glass of wine, you couldn't stop me. That's a great segue. Do you feel like you could ever moderate alcohol? I actually don't have a taste for it. I personally feel like, could I moderate drinking? Perhaps. But I don't want to risk all of the joy and the, all of the progress I've made by drinking again. I just don't see the purpose. I don't drink because I chose not to drink. I don't want to drink in moderation. I just don't see if there's a purpose. There's a need for me to drink alcohol in moderation. If I'm gonna drink, why would I drink in moderation? I just don't have the urge for it. I just don't want it. Yeah. And that's beautiful. Yeah, I love that answer. Yeah, I don't need to moderate it. I just don't want it. I don't want to have to drink again. I just don't even see there's no benefit in alcohol whatsoever. You know, this illusion about drinking two glasses of wine again, is good for your heart. I don't believe that, but if, and science doesn't back that up actually. Right. And I'm just saying, I just don't see there's a need for me to drink alcohol, period. I just don't want it. Love that. Okay. My final, final question for you is because you are my very special person and as my mother, I'm just wondering, do you feel like there was any parallels between your relationship with alcohol and my relationship with alcohol as your daughter? I actually didn't realize that you had a problem until you became sober. Really? Yeah. I never acknowledged it. Never had any inclination, any ideas that there would possibly have been a problem until you became sober? I. Really? Yes. Really? Yeah. Even after like all the stuff that I like, the trouble I got into, so, but that was college, Nadine. I mean, you weren't the only one. Mm. That's what college I've worked with college students and the things that they told me they did when they were drinking. It was just, it's just that's what college students did. I feel like you were always weary with me though in driving. Like you would always and like so, but you didn't think I actually had like an A problem with alcohol. I didn't think you had a problem with alcohol. But I used to say to you, please, if you're gonna drink, please, I'd rather you just stay. What do you mean? The night stay where you are rather than to attempt to drive home? I said that to you multiple times. Yes you have. That's actually interesting to me. I thought that you may have had some kind of inclination that I had a problem with drinking. No, I didn't. I just didn't want you to drink and drive. I haven think about that. And do you think that you had a problem with drinking? Did I have a problem with drinking? Um, it's very hard for me to say yes and no to that because at the time when I was drinking, I didn't feel that it was a problem. And like I explained, I realized that I'm doing more harm to my body than good. Mm. And that's the reason why I stopped. That's beautiful. Okay, mom, I really appreciate you coming on. I've been dying to have you as a guest and I'm so glad that we had this chance to talk a little bit about both of our history with drinking and I, I got to like share some of your story with listeners at home. How do you feel? Okay. Yeah. Very good. Okay. You had so much apprehension about coming on the show, but you did it. Okay. We did it. Thank you so much. Thanks, Charlie. It was a pleasure. I love you. Okay. I love you too. Okay guys. So that's all I have to share. I also wanna say thank you for being here, and thank you for allowing me to hold space in your day as you listen to this podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please, please do me a favor and one, make sure you're following the show so that you can stay up to date with everything else that's happening. And two. Please, please leave a review as it helps more people find the show. I would appreciate even more if it's a five star review, but do what's right for you. Do what you think I deserve, thank you so much, and I'll see you next week. Bye bye.