The Illusion of Control: Reframing Relationships to Substances with Prakruti Makan

Prakruti Makan not only brings her personal story of recovery, with almost four years of sobriety from substances like cocaine, alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, and caffeine, but also gems from her professional experience as a sober coach for the Reframe App and former psychotherapist. Prakruti shares unique insights into the process of reframing one's relationship with substances and life experiences in this week's episode.

We also get into...

• Cognitive reframing how to respond to life's curveballs
• Why celebrating monthly milestones in sobriety is important
• The illusion of control
• How to reframe your relationship to substances
• Parenting/dating/relationships in sobriety

Connect with Prakruti 

• Follow on IG: @brownwonderwoman2023
• Follow on TikTok: @brownwonderwoman2023

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• Subscribe to YouTube channel 
• Subscribe to our monthly newsletter,  https://thesoberbutterfly.com/

Resources from the Episode:

FREEBIE Beginner’s Guide to Dry January (e-book)
FREEBIE Guide to Quitting Alcohol - 30 Day Transformation (course)

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Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the show. My name is Nadine Malvina and you are listening to the Sober Butterfly Podcast. TSB is all about diving into inspiring stories of personal growth, resilience, and transformation. Today we actually have an incredible guest who's going to share their story of reframing their relationship with alcohol. The beauty of Prakruti story is that she's not only just reframing her relationship with alcohol, but she's reframing her relationship. To all things in life. If you've ever struggled with trying to see the big picture or understand the greater lesson, when maybe something doesn't go the way that you planned or expected, then you definitely wanna check this episode out because pre Ruthie is such a wealth of information and is sharing so many gems. Prakruthi is about to start coaching on the Reframe app, hence the title of today's episode. And she's also a former psychotherapist, so she is super credible and has so much information as it pertains to psychology and neuroscience. Today we have a powerful episode that comes with a sensitive subject matter. We want to issue a trigger warning to our listeners as we discuss the journey of reframing one's relationship with not just alcohol, because we do talk openly about Puck Ruthie's drug of choice, which was cocaine. So this episode may contain content related to addiction, mental health challenges and recovery., there are also some lighthearted moments in today's episodes such as p Ruthie celebrating every milestone. So every month she celebrates sobriety, which I think is phenomenal, as well as what it's like to raise her beautiful twin girls as a single mom and just What it's like to be on the other side of divorce and even touch on the subject of dating again. So stay tuned for all of that. Let's get started. Hello! We are here with a very special guest. I have Prakruti. Prakruti, welcome to the Sober Butterfly podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. How are you tonight? Hi, thank you. I'm good. It just, this time change, it feels like it's the middle of the night, but uh, but I'm here. It does. We were joking backstage that it gets dark at like 3. 45, 4 p. m. for Ruthie's in the Chicago area. I'm in the New York City area, and so it's just crazy how quickly the day or the daylight passes us, but we are here We persist and we have so much to share and i'm very excited to get to know you a little bit more So just for listeners at home a little bit of context. I love Instagram because I feel so connected to people who have, you know, similar stories, but not even just similar stories who are very open and transparent and visible with what life looked like before sobriety. And I connected so deeply to you. I think the first post I ever saw of yours, and I don't know why this somehow pops up on my discovery page, but there was a picture of you and Snoop Dogg. And I was just like, this is such a cool. a cool shot. And I was like, she looks amazing. And then you were just very, very forthcoming about like what life looked like before. So I'm sure we'll get into some of that in this conversation. But thank you. Thank you, Instagram algorithm for bringing that to my page and to my explore page because here we are. Yes, yes, absolutely. The gift that keeps on giving. So You are sober, and I'm just curious how long have you been sober? I like to start there, and not that I think you can necessarily always quantify sobriety or sober time, but I think it's helpful to just like start with that so people have a little bit of framework in terms of like, how long you've actually been without substances. So I have been sober for three years and nine months. So I I celebrate every month. I know that that's not like the typical milestone. But I think it's important for me. And these are individual journeys. So I figured out that that's what works for me. So every month for three years and nine months. I have celebrated and that's how I figured out that I need to because that one month, uh, didn't feel good. So in March, I will be four years and sober to me looks like no alcohol, no cocaine, no nicotine, no marijuana. And I also don't engage or consume caffeine. Uh, and that was. prior to the other substances. So like six years for that one. So alcohol, cocaine, nicotine, and marijuana. I stopped all of those at the same time, three years and nine months ago. But yeah, you're so right. It's hard to like quantify. That kind of stuff, uh, like sometimes I still identify as a newcomer in so many ways, uh, you know, like everything's so relative, uh, but I've also gained so much since like year one. It looks very different now than my year one. Well, first off, I love that you celebrate monthly and I love that because truly, you know, every day is truly a gift and I also believe that we shouldn't take it for granted. And I think sometimes it's easy to bypass some of those milestones just because we're fixated on like the bigger milestones. I'm curious, what ways do you celebrate? So you're, if you're celebrating on a monthly basis, what does that look like? So, year one it was more elaborate but it doesn't have to be elaborate, you know, like a celebration can, you can reframe it as whatever, you know, you want it to look like, like for those of us who are on these journeys, we reframe celebrating as not having to do with substances like alcohol. So for me, like year one, some of the things I did, I got this tattoo. It's the NA symbol. I love Yeah, I'm also wearing my NA shirt from the NA convention. So my drug of choice I consider my drug of choice cocaine. So, but I worked an AA program year one. But I think, I think it's all the same in my opinion. But for one of my milestones, I don't remember what, which month it was, but I got this tattoo. Another milestone, I did a hot air balloon ride. Oh my gosh. Yeah. With my daughters and their father. What we were married at the time. And, uh, what else have I done? Oh, for like the one year I walked on fire. Wow, oh my gosh. That's incredible. Yeah, walking on fire originated in India. You know, and that's where my family comes from. I'm first generation born in this country but my parents were born in India and Like it's so close to my heart, you know, like my grandparents still live there. I got to take my daughter's last year. And it kind of signifies like when you walk across the fire it signifies leaving your past in the behind, like behind you and like moving forward. So, I thought it was perfect so I had it set up and, uh, it, it was in March. So here in Chicago, like you can either have like spring or winter in March. Uh, it happened to be snowing that day, but we just had to have some patience and to get like the fire, you know, going and everything. Uh, and yeah, we walked on fire. Well, and I love it. That was like a family affair. And I think fire gets a bad rep. Like, we think of fire as destruction, but it's almost like a reborn, rebirth, I should say, because you're like literally diminishing or you're leaving behind or burning these past elements of you maybe that don't exist. Represent who you are today, and you get to be reborn from the flame and I think that's so beautiful. Exactly. Like the phoenix, yeah. Like the phoenix, exactly. And for any like Game of Thrones fans, like also like dragons come from fire, so it's like this majestic creature. I absolutely love that milestone, the three years and nine months wasn't as elaborate. I went to dinner with my daughters and then we did a Christmas themed haunted house. Oh my gosh. I think I saw that on your social media. That's incredible. And you do so many like cool activities with your girls. And I want to get into that. But I always like to start at the beginning. And I know that, you know, this is a limited time that we have together, but I'm curious to know what some of your conversations earliest formative experiences were with substances. So growing up, were they in your home? Did you see any examples of maybe addiction or substance abuse at home or in your general kind of like schema or your surroundings? You're using my psych words. I love, I love, I'm like, I'm really big into like neuroscience and psychology. Yes. I have a master's in psychology. I practiced as a psychotherapist and now I work for the Reframe app, which is neuroscience based. But I, I use that word schema really often. So I'm very excited that you just use that word. Can you define it for people just in case, because like we know, but I'm not so sure everyone's familiar with that term. So like, how would you define schema? And then of course, we'll go back to that question. Yeah. So I define it as or it is defined not my opinion, but it's defined in psychology as like a blueprint for life. Our brains look at past things. So for example, my parents relationship and I store that information and I use that for my own relationships in the present, but of course we can always rewire and change these things. So it's kind of like our blueprint for life. So we learn things and then we store it. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Okay. We have common language there. That's how I see it as well. Like these outside influences that essentially make up how we see the world. And like, I love the part that you mentioned because we can pun intended, reframe how we see the world Yeah. As well. Absolutely. Yeah. That's the important part. We can change all of that so we're not like you know, a slave to the hand. We were dealt. Like it's, uh, you know, at some point we can, we can no longer blame our parents or our childhood, you know, and we. grow up and we have the ability to change all these things and formulate our own opinions and our own life. So I think the problem is so many people don't recognize the power that they hold in re rewiring that and it's so easy to, like, just be the victim or, like, say, well, this is how I was raised, or this is my parents. I mean, I, I was stuck for a very long time, and that's what blame does, it keeps us stuck. So, being so angry and blaming people just kept me stuck for years, you know, so I'm grateful I was able to let go of, like, a lot of things. But yeah, so like addiction alcoholism challenges with substances, whatever language works for everybody, like, you know, doesn't exist as far as I know in my family history, which, you know, we know that there's typically a hereditary component but also being from a brown background. People aren't as open and forthcoming as I am. So even with medical history, mental health history, substance use history, like you don't always get an accurate picture of what what is there in your bloodline. Right. But like my family of origin, my immediate family, like there are There are no substance use, uh, issues as far as I can see so yeah, I, I think for me, it's like, I think it's more of like the textbook, like, some sort of trauma, so you have like little T, big T and then, you know, it's either chicken or the egg, so either like, the mental health issues, like the depressive symptoms came first, maybe, I don't know, or the substance use first, and then an exasperated Exacerbated the depressive symptoms, but that's kind of my story. So I had some trauma when I was an adolescent, uh, and I tried to cope you know, by using this maladaptive coping strategy by using, uh, substances. So that's, that's what it looked like for me. And I was a binger. So my active addiction was binging. So like, and as, as an adolescent, it looked kind of normal, you know, because I feel like in this country, like everybody binges. Right. So like in high school, like I went to the University of Chicago laboratory schools, like, you know, in a well established school, like Obama's girls went there. But everybody's still binged. It was just part of life. And then I went to UIC for undergrad. And again, you know, everybody's binging. It looks normal. And then graduate school I went to Roosevelt University for that master's degree and again, everybody's binging right so it just looks normal. So, as a teen, and then in my 20s like in my 20s, I was, Drinking and using cocaine like I would say every weekend and then the weekdays, I was like, you know, like a functioning member of society, like doing a master's degree, getting all A's, just one B you know, doing, writing research papers doing my practicum, so like field work and helping people with their own mental health and then on the weekends, I'm like harming myself, but I think that's what Like kept me from getting the help I deserved sooner, you know, like having all these things on paper that looked good. So that would like justify my use. Then at 31, or no, sorry, at 30, I got pregnant with my girls. So I stopped, I stopped everything. And then once once they were born, I didn't continue with alcohol or cocaine but I was smoking marijuana every day. So marijuana, even though I don't say that's my drug of choice, that is what I have done most consistently in my life. So I've smoked marijuana. Almost every year, or I did from 16 until I quit in 2020 except for when I was pregnant, and then there was one more year where I felt like it was exacerbating my anxiety, so I, I wasn't engaging in it, Then their father left abruptly, and I went back to my drug of choice, cocaine and alcohol, but I was raising the girls alone for a year when they were three, so I didn't really have like all the time in the world to be like doing cocaine, like cocaine takes It's like two days for me, so like, when I binge, like, you know, come down, girl. Yeah. Well, even the, the active addiction part, like when I'm using cocaine, like, you know, so like, it's like, when did I have time? So that was probably like every three months or something that I would engage in that in my like later thirties. And then now I don't do any of it. So that's kind of what my use looks like throughout my life and I'm 41 now. So. Thank you for sharing that. If it's okay if we backtrack a little bit. So, you mentioned the big T, little t, and so, and then like, it sounded like you were functioning pretty much as a normal member of society, as you mentioned, it was almost like you had this duality that existed, which so many people I'm sure can relate to where it's like, You didn't quite hit a rock bottom, so it's sometimes harder, I believe, to pull yourself out of that addictive cycle when you're not presenting as someone who necessarily needs the help or needs to change. So how did cocaine make you feel when you were using it, and why did you use it? What was it? Because I think it gets this reputation as being more of a party or a social drug. How were you engaging with it? Yeah, so it's, you know, it's interesting because I feel like even in these like recovery spaces or sober spaces, whatever language works for everyone, like, I feel like talking about cocaine is taboo but it is part of my story. And I, I was a terrible drinker. I would have like two two drinks and I was wasted and I'm like, how am I going to keep up? So then it was all about control. So my twenties was all about control, which was all an illusion. And I know that now. But so the cocaine came into play to control the drinking, keep me more alert more sane, you know, more in control. So that's how it went. But then, of course, you know, I couldn't control the cocaine then because it literally, you know, affects your brain. It tricks your brain into thinking that it's producing sufficient amounts of dopamine and then your brain's not actually, you know, producing dopamine. And that's why the crash is so bad. But you're like you're off switch in your mesolimbic dopaminergic reward pathway just literally stops working like the switch just It's broken. And then you just keep using it's a highly addictive substance. So yeah, that's how it came into play. Yeah, and it's just highly accessible and, uh, I, how did I feel on it? Like, it's like, so this is why I also don't engage in caffeine because they're both stimulants. So because my drug of choice was cocaine, I stay away from stimulants. So I don't drink coffee. I don't drink soda. I don't do tea with caffeine. What else? I don't drink Red Bull. I don't drink energy drinks. So for me, it's kind of like, like when someone's vegetarian and they eat like the, the fake meat patty, like, I don't want to engage in things that feel like how I felt when I was drinking. So I don't want to depend on substances. I don't want to depend on coffee every morning to like survive. I don't want to depend on Red Bull to go to a concert. So that's, that's what it, That's what it is for me. Like, for me, my litmus test is how I feel about myself. So, And so that's it. So that, that was my, you were talking about rock bottoms for me. Like, yeah, nothing like huge happened, but like, I didn't like myself. And my, my goal in life is to like, then love myself. That's right. Which to me has to do with being happy. So if I smoked weed, even like, I didn't like myself and now I finally like myself. So that's my litmus test. So even like my eating habits, like I eat ice cream every day. I don't feel bad about myself when I eat ice cream every day. Thank you. I saw that on your page. Yes. I love that in your story. I literally eat ice cream every day. If it changes and I no longer feel good about myself after eating that, then that to me is an indication that I have to reassess that. And it might not be the healthiest for my life. But right now I'm able to eat that bag of chips and not feel bad about myself. And so that's what works for me. I love that. It's interesting because I never thought about that, that correlation between, obviously we know the classification of a drug like cocaine is considered a stimulant and as, as is coffee and other things that you cited like Red Bull, energy drinks, things like that. And I never thought about like making that direct connection and how. Engaging in substances like caffeine could be conducive or triggering to, the same types of feelings that you had when you were on cocaine. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think cocaine, even within the recovery space, which we hope, and I think for the most part, it is a safe space. Like. It's still considered, oh wow, like we're going there, we're talking about like real things. And I, I too, very much like, so I had a somewhat different experience from you. So I was a heavy drinker and I in excess to the point where I felt like I could never get enough and towards the end of my drinking, my threshold was so high that I couldn't get drunk anymore. And so that's when I You were a daily user or you were a binger also? I was both. At various points in my life, I think in college, especially, I was daily and binging. In my 20s as a young, young professional, I would take some breaks. So like my Monday to like, I would say Wednesday, sometimes Thursday, but mainly probably Wednesday, I would abstain from drinking, but then Thursday beyond I was drinking in excess every single day. And then there were parts, especially in the pandemic, for example, when I was drinking a lot daily and my threshold, like I said, was just through the roof. And therefore, in an effort to feel more, I would then want to experiment and try other things. And to your point, I feel like we don't talk about how, how common it is. I think it's less spoken about, but how common it is to find a cocaine. Like, I still think. Coming from like a black space like as a black woman like there's such taboo linked with the word cocaine like people I think have associations like my god it's crack and technically yeah it is I guess it's it's a form of that but like it's also it has For me, at least it had this air of elitism, like, Oh, I'm a part of the secret society that does this. And like, I almost felt connected to people when I found out that they also partied. And I'm air quoting that because that was like a common term we would use. But I, so thank you for sharing that. And I, I really feel that so much because I do feel like there's less transparency around the different types of drugs, but I think having addiction to any substance is. or can be problematic. So it's important to like, get that intel. So curious to know, moving forward. So you mentioned your girls were born and you, and when you were pregnant, we found that you were pregnant, you stopped doing everything. Was that easy for you? But I'm, yes, that was just an immediate reaction. And you were like, nope, I'm done. 100 percent because it was something bigger than me, right? And like, I just, I just feel like I was born to be a mom. Like, of course I've got other goals and things, you know, and like, I feel like being a mom is not as valued. As it used to be like, I don't know, for our generation, but like, I feel like I was born to be a mom. Like I was like, saving things for my future babies. Yeah, I don't know. It just comes naturally to me. Like I remember when I was practicing as a psychotherapist, one of my co workers said that the universe gave me twins because I have so much love to give. And Yeah. Like it was, it was not hard at all. Like I remember their, their dad when we found out that, you know, I was, I was pregnant, he was like, Oh, just take this last hit of weed. And I was like, no, like I, I have a fun high for myself, like, and know that, you know, my babies, you know, are there. So yeah, no, that was easy. And three years ago and three years and nine months ago when I, you know, stopped stopped everything. Yeah. They were, again, my, they were my why. They were my catalyst for change. But it's not sustainable to do this, to continue this journey for somebody else. So somewhere along the, along the road, uh, it became for me. You know, and I think that I just kept seeing all the benefits as I continue this journey and like. Especially year three, like, oof, I am, I am never going back. I finally have peace. Like, my, my sad days now are still happy. And my, my happy days when I was in active addiction were still sad. And I think that'll make sense, you know, to someone like you who's on the same journey as me, so. I love that. Say it again for the people in the back. Like, like, that's the thing. Like, my. Highest moments or what I thought were my highest moments when inactive addiction were are probably my lowest points today. Now that I'm sober, I'm like, that was a fake high. It wasn't authentic. It wasn't genuine. It was just this like, oh, I think I think I feel Like I'm on top of the world, but in reality, I'm so, I'm so broken. I felt broken before I got to this place to actually published so much, right? Like I had that master's degree. I modeled for 10 years. That's how I met Snoop. So I had all these achievements in the modeling world, you know, like I was. I was, you know, married, I had my children, like I had all these things but I just like wasn't happy and I didn't have peace and I didn't like myself, you know, so. Do you feel like that lack of feeling happy or if it was like a void, is that connected? Have you done much thought? Was that connected to what happened to you in childhood or when you were an adolescent? Yes. So, so in my twenties. I thought that I was so powerful, right? But I was not, I had repressed those memories. It's, it's interesting because like I have all this psych knowledge, right? Like I, in undergrad and grad, I did psychology. Uh, so I have a bachelor's and a master's in psychology, but when you're in it, it's hard to like sometimes Recognize or apply these things to yourself. So like I had literally pushed that memory away until I actually went to outpatient rehab. I went to Hazelden in Chicago. And I went there, but I wasn't, I wasn't, uh, I was in denial. So I was definitely, I consider this my first, my first time doing the sober thing. When I went to outpatient rehab, I said that I was doing it for research purposes to see what it's like, you know, cause I'm going to be a psychotherapist, I'm like, let me see what the client feels, but like I needed it, but at the time I was like, okay. And I did it for somebody else who you know, thought I had a problem and I was like, okay, whatever. So I went there and they had only one individual session with a therapist, which is also a problem. But, uh, but yeah, so one, my one individual session with the therapist and they had me fill something out. And I was like, you know, crossing off things and then one of the questions said like, have you I don't know if you want me to, I don't want to trigger anybody, so I'm not sure what's safe to talk about or not. I feel like you can say it and then if I need to put a disclaimer at the beginning of the episode I will do that. Thank you for email. Yes, of course. So there was, it asked, have you ever been raped or sexually assaulted, and all of a sudden my brain clicked and was like, oh. Yes. And so I crossed, you know, I checked that box. Uh, and then it finally, you know, came back to the forefront of my, my mind. You know, and in my twenties, I thought I was very powerful, not not speaking about it, not addressing it. But of course it was still running my life in all these negative ways, whether I wanted to you know, like recognize it or not, it was still running my life. So yeah, that was like a, a pivotal moment. So I have, so I've done years of therapy not just as a psychotherapist, as a client when I started my master's. Yeah, when I started my master's program, they suggested that we go to therapy to work on our own shit so we can best serve other people. Yeah. So, I have gone to many therapists, you know, for different things because you know, that journey too, like, as we continue our life journey, our needs change. So like our fit for what's a, what's a good therapist also changes. You also figure out like what works, like, you know, like factors like gender of the therapist matter. You know, race matters, ethnic background, age, these things all matter. So I went to a lot of individual therapy, did a lot of work. But I feel like, so I had that I learned a bunch of neuroscience. Also, I have all these things that I learned, but none of it really clicked until I became sober. So that was really the missing link for me. So now that I've been sober for three years and nine months, like. All that work I did like finally like I feel like it's finally all coming together. So that was like the missing, the missing puzzle piece was the sobriety and now all the work I did for all those years like it finally like you know has all fallen into place I feel like I love that it sounds like you said, the greatest in miscoding you somewhat but the essence of what you were saying is that you've gained so much peace and sobriety and it sounds like also clarity. Thank you. And I think I agree and resonate with that as well. So you had your girls and you mentioned there was a period, you know, even when you found that you were pregnant and your husband or ex husband now mentioned like, Oh, like take this last hit. What was your relationship like with your then ex or now ex then husband in regards to substances? And like, how did that play into the relationship as a whole? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so the more that I learn about my brain, it helps me to give myself grace. I am great at giving other people empathy, sympathy, compassion and grace. But I I put myself on on a pedestal on a different hold myself to a different standard. Learning, you know, really recognizing the impact that that trauma had on me is helpful to me and the choices that I've made. Knowing that fawning is related to, codependency, it's a trauma response, helps me again to give myself grace for the decisions I've made with men. So I can only do what I can do with the knowledge that I had at the time. so I forgive myself for maybe not picking the healthiest partner for myself. and I think that's why we worked then because we were both unhealthy. and then, you know, you either grow together or you grow apart. And, uh, I think the healthier I got, I cannot love myself. And also. have stayed in that marriage. he didn't like my drug of choice. So that was, that was all me. And you know, when he left he left abruptly, uh, when the girls were three and I had raised them for a year. Uh, initially I, I blamed him. I was like, you know, but nobody, nobody makes us do cocaine. Like nobody's, nobody made that my drug of choice. You know, people cope in different ways, because he left, you know, like I didn't have to start. using alcohol and cocaine, you know, and for the longest time, like, I kind of blamed him, like, he made me go back to these things I was doing so well, you know, so, like, I recognize that, like, not everybody copes in that way, right? but him and I smoked marijuana daily, and when I did start this sober journey, it was challenging because, you know, on one hand, he's like, you've got to stop all these substances. But then on the other hand, he was doing nothing to support this decision. Right. Yeah, like it was almost yeah, so like I'm trying, I'm trying to think of how to say this without telling his story. Yeah, like I just, I know a lot of people say like, thanks to my partner. I made it through this, for me, I feel like I made it through in spite of him, you know, that year one or not even that year one, the first month is so hard. And he had alcohol in the house. And, I would express, I don't set people up to fail. I try to be as clear. Yeah. As I can be, you know, with communicating, but that doesn't mean that other people are going to receive what I need, right? Like it's either a can't or a won't problem, but either way, my needs are not being met. So I told. You know, like it's hard for me right now with alcohol in the house and he'd be like, Oh, you didn't even like beer. What does it matter if I have beer here? And it just felt like, unsupportive. So, uh, it was, it was hard, but it also helped me to reach out to, the clubhouse app. So I, made so many connections on the clubhouse hat app, and I was hosting on there. And a participant and, uh, I made some, some connections and people that I still talk to and everything. And, uh, that really helped. That really helped in early sobriety. And I also had, I mentioned that I had done, So I had two different sponsors year one, and that also helped me. but you know, my first sponsor, it was a great reminder that we're all just human beings in recovery, right? Like I host, I host meetings for Reframe, but I'm, I'm still a woman in recovery, right? So I need. I need help also. I'm yes. I'm not God. I'm a mod, right? So this sponsor, like she's also, she was just a human being too. And, we had worked together for about six months and something changed. And in my opinion, I think she was getting ready to relapse because I really saw a lot of changes in her and she actually. She, like, broke up with me. Oh, really? Yeah, and this was early sobriety, and she was like, she told me she's not getting paid for this shit. Oh! Yeah, and then she was like, I don't think you're ready for this program. Well Well, bitch, I'm at three, three years and nine months now, but it was scary. It was scary. Don't get to decide who's ready for the program or not. Like if I'm showing up, like, I'm ready. We are not. Yeah, it was very irresponsible, you know, and somebody else could have realized like I could have I could have relapsed. So I'm very grateful that I'm still, I'm still in this program, but it just reminds us that we're all just human beings, you know, like nobody's, like I said, I put my own self on a pedestal sometimes to this high standard, but like, we're all just human beings in recovery. And then I had another sponsor, after that, but I only made it to like step four. I know AA is not for everybody, but the core principles are universally applicable to everybody's life. I feel, uh, regardless if you identify as being in recovery or not, yes, there's a lot of parallels actually with that and the Hindu scriptures because I'll, I'll tell my parents, yeah, I'll tell my parents some things and they're like, oh, that's, you know, that's what we do like in our stuff. And I'm like, oh, so wow. Yeah. Beautiful. AA sayings also, I keep those with me. The AA sayings I think are, are really helpful and I share, I share those on the meetings I host all the time. And I know people, some people have attached a negative connotation to AA, but I think that's like, maybe the people who ran that meeting, you know, but you can still, you know, take what works for you and leave the rest, which is an AA saying. Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And so, what was it like when, because you mentioned. Sometimes you grow, you either grow or you grow apart with your partner. And I think just marriage, I've never been married. I've been in relationships before. So I can only imagine the level of difficulty, being in a marriage. I can only imagine, but relationships in general are difficult. So I'm curious to know, what was it like when you separated from your husband? Did you feel triggered? Did you feel like this could be what sends you back to how life was before? Or, like, yeah, so I'm just curious, like, what did life look like for you then? So, this time when we got separated? Like, this time? Yeah. Yes. So, this time looks very different from 2017 when he left abruptly. This time feels like it was more of my choice but I did do it for all of us. So for a long time, I felt like I was holding on for my daughters, you know, like, we talked about that schema, right? So in my culture, like typically, there's this martyrdom for women and you keep the peace at all costs, right? But these days I'm more concerned with the peace inside of me as opposed to like, you know, making everything okay around me. And Our own daughters asked me to get the divorce, and uh, one of, I know, and one of them said to me, Mom, we can't wait for you, uh, to, I don't know how she put it, like, be treated the way you deserve, or, or have the love that you deserve, or something like that. And I was like, wait a minute, like, why, why am I holding on, what am I holding on for, right? So I, I made the decision to let go of the marriage, and uh, I prepared, and uh, Yeah, like sometimes if I'm triggered especially, you know, now during the holidays, like, or this, this time of year is very triggering for me, uh, because it reminds me of seven years ago when he left and I didn't handle it very well. I mean, I did the best I could at the time. Right. Right. But I remind myself that I am not 2017 Prakruthi. This is 2023 Prakruthi. And that helps to keep me to get me back into the present. And remember that although. Things around me like might not have changed like I have changed. And so I love that. Yes. So I'm not the same person I was in 2017. So, so no, it's more I honestly don't often. You know, these are individual journeys, but I don't often get triggered to use. And there have been a couple instances which I can talk about. But I, it's more that I get concerned about my mental health. But something else that's pretty remarkable this year. I can no longer say that I have depression. Like I, I don't. Yeah. Beautiful. Wow. When I stopped all substances three years and nine months ago, my anxiety just went away. It just, Completely went away. My depression continued. But this year, like I, you know, it's important for us to continue like to reassess these labels that we might have put in ourselves or other people have put on us because these things change, right? So, I don't, I don't have depression. Of course I get sad and I have down moments, but they're like valid, right? Or situational. But I no longer have depression where I'm I cry and I'm feel hopeless and helpless and I have suicidal ideation and I can't get out of bed like no, I don't have depression anymore. So is it because you've removed the substances solely, would you say? No. Yeah, what other things are you doing that have helped aid you to this place where the depression has gone? So that's the, that's the base rate, right? Like, that's the foundation. Like, once we remove alcohol or, you know, whatever substance people are working on, like, then we get to do all these other things, right? So I told you about my litmus test, like, of how I evaluate behaviors. So the next step for me was letting go of that marriage, you know? So I think it's a Combination of all those things. And of course, you know, none of this would be possible without the sobriety. Like I remember praying for the strength to let go of the marriage and thinking that I can't do it. I was thinking my kids break the cycle, you know, like I'll give them all the tools and they'll do it. I'm like, I can't do it. But here I am. Right. So like you're. Year one was hard, but I learned a lot. Year two, I would say I learned how to reframe. And that is such a game changer. Like I can literally reframe anything and that's what helps me keep my peace. This year, this year three feels, it feels amazing. Like I just have, I know how to like keep my peace. And again, that doesn't mean that I don't have hard moments. Like I'm raising my daughters a hundred percent by myself. Like he doesn't. He doesn't help in any way. But the, yeah, but the reframe there again, is that I don't have to share them. I get my daughter. a hundred percent of the time. So, so yeah, like, yeah, I don't know. I just, it's, it's my mind. And a lot of it is, uh, neuroscience also. That was my question. So is the reframe this idea that you were changing your mindset and therefore any situation instead of whoa was me instead of wallowing in that self pity or not even just self pity, but like harping on the fact that you can't control that situation. You instead think about what you can do or how this could be a benefit to you. Yeah. I'll give you some, some like examples of recently, like one that's like really quick and easy. Like my, my German shepherd bit my face and, uh, I was able to reframe that. Uh, and I was like, Listen, listen, b tch, I was like, you're not always gonna look like this, like, you, you're gonna have to, like, you're gonna have to, you know, like, you're gonna have to work on the things inside of you, uh, you know, that's the stuff that nobody can take away from you but, like, I'm 41, like, as I continue to age, I'm going to look different. Yes. So that was the lesson there. Well, that's just listening. And I hope, I hope I'm not objectifying you. Your face is beautiful. So if you're a dog, but your face don't look like that, then yeah, because it looks great. Sorry. Oh, thank you. So one, one like really helpful reframe has to do with interpersonal relationships. So, something that my, my ex husband said to me cause he loved to push buttons and say these really, you know, these hurtful things, but that's the thing, right? Like now, like. I know all my shit, and I know how to reframe it, so no one can say something that's going to hurt me, because I can, I can change it. So he had said to me once, I remember, we were arguing, and he said like, Do you ever think about how you can't keep a relationship? Like, you have no friends, and you don't have any, like, close relationships. And I was like, oof, oh my gosh, like, you know, it hurts so bad. But then, I was able to reframe that, and you know, like, I think it's, it's a strength and something positive that I'm able to let go of relationships that don't work for me. So I have had a lot of different friends in my life. And I did used to wonder what's wrong with me. But I think it's also indicative of how much I change. I work on myself so much, you know, so the same people aren't going to stay in my life. So instead of looking at it as a negative, you reframe it and you change it into a positive. So for a long time, you know, it really affected me that I felt like I didn't belong, uh, with my family of origin, you know, like, why wasn't I like them? Like, why, why do I not feel the same as them? And then I reframed it and like, maybe it's not a bad thing that I don't belong. Like, I'm breaking cycles, you know? Like, I'm different, but different doesn't mean bad or worse, right? So, like, those are, those are different ways that I reframe things, that really help me to keep my peace. I absolutely love that, and I also can relate to that because I think sometimes it is painful when somebody brings it to your attention, especially as a job, as a way to, like, really, like, stick the knife in and twist it. It's reminiscent of a that relationship because it's the irony is like, I'm not with you anymore because I'm not the same person. Exactly. That's right. So, and if I were the same person, then maybe we'd still be together, but we're not. So it's like, almost like in that same breath of you saying that it's like, thank you. You're right. Because if that were the case, I'd still be here with you. And I'm not so Thank you very much. But yeah, and I think that goes back to reframing what you were mentioning before reframing your schema and like, just because you were taught something or that doesn't mean that you have to carry that with you to the end, like you can always change how you see the world. So that's beautiful. So that's kind of like your phase two or year two of sobriety. What was your one again, that was you mentioning it was just like a, was it like a growth process for you just like rediscovering? Year one felt more like survival. It really felt more like survival. 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In the morning it's great for a boost to start the day versus in the afternoon if you want to beat that afternoon slump and enhance your mental clarity or if you just need like a simple pick me up like for me I love to have a moment after the gym versus going into the gym because it just really helps. Reenergize me. And then in the evening if you want to wind down after a long busy day and enjoy a delicious mocktail without the hangover, then Moment is great for that too. One of the best parts for me with Moment is I feel like it's a really conscientious brand. They donate 1 percent of all their sales to mental health non profits so you can feel good about supporting greater causes as well. Head over to drinkmoment. com and use my code TSB23 to receive 12 percent off your very first order. Let's be moment buddies. We can both have moments together. I didn't do as much in year one and the things that I did do it felt like I survived them, like I tolerated them, but I wasn't happy. Like I did this trip to LA, uh, year one. And I made it through and that's how I think of it. it was hard. and I learned, you know, that I could utilize these tools. Like I called people from clubhouse. When I needed help, you know, I reached out to this waitress one night because one of my friends who was supposed to be sober, wasn't sober. And she spilled wine on my leg and I was livid. And then I felt. I wasn't allowed to be livid. People were like, Oh, like she's a party pooper type deal, which might have been in my mind, but I'm unsure. But anyway, I was angry and I went and told the waitress. I said, look, I'm trying to be sober. I need help. And, uh, she was like, let me clear a space for you. She brought me like some tea and a dessert. Cause we know I love dessert. And then I called my friends from the clubhouse app and I made it through. But I wasn't happy and I wasn't having like fun, but that's my that was my experience, right? I was putting myself in these situations that maybe not everybody would year one. Year three, like this year, like I can go, I go everywhere. Like, one of my friends DJs and I'm there, like, everybody's drinking. I'm around my drug of choice sometimes and there was a moment, I actually went to LA this year as well, and, uh, I had a blast. I had so much fun, and I even went out all night with some people who were there. engaging in my drug of choice. And out of like seven hours had one moment where that cocaine looked really sparkly and it was like, you know, calling my name, but I know what to do. So I used my tools, right? So our brains recognize our name first and foremost out of anything. So I said, Prakruti stop. So that's the first thing I did. And then I played the tape through or played the tape. Which, uh, still in year three, this, this works. So I thought about it. I said, okay, if I, if I decide to, you know. Engage in that cocaine, like, what's going to happen? And then I saw myself like, you know, I'm like, I, I've already seen this movie, like I don't wanna see this again. Like I know where I'm gonna be and it's gonna be misery and hell and self-loathing and suicidal ideation and all these things. So, yeah, yeah. So it really, it really works. But but this year, yeah, this year three just feels so, so different. It's so helpful to hear you share. There's a term I'm looking to massacre because I always do, but it's like we're alternately unique. It's that's like a term. And it's like, because I, I'm like, dang, like, I thought I was the only one my first year. I'm going into my third year. But my first year was misery almost Being in situations with other people, it was like tolerating and I was hypersensitive. I was just like hyper aware and hypersensitive to how it seemed like, seemed, I'm using that word very intentionally, but everyone was having. fun or living their best life and I was just sort of like bearing through it like trying to just make it through every day and like counting my days like okay you did it you did it you did it and now I literally can also be around my drug of choice I can go out and I I I don't so much feel triggered as much as I used to, but I will say it's almost like a social experiment where I can just sort of be, and it's not judging, okay, because I always feel like people are also hyper aware that I'm sober, and the friends that like support me, because I don't go out with people anymore that like peer pressure me to do stuff, like I'm past that so I found like my core group of people that I can have fun with who still, you know, partake in whatever they want to indulge in. However, for me, it's the social experiment is It's amusing to remind myself, right, of how I would be. it's part playing the tape forward, part like, wow, like I can predict also what's going to happen in this situation. I don't want to throw away all of the work in progress that I've done for one split second because it's such a quick, quick, like, oh, in this moment, maybe I give in and then I. regress back to, you know, the misery that life was, the chaos, vanity, or what it looked like. I think for me, and I'm curious to get your perspective on this, I don't crave anymore. I don't have any physical cravings. I don't really feel triggered as much. I do sometimes romanticize. And I think it might be a societal thing because I love drama. I live for the drama. If I'm watching a movie, for example, and I see the protagonist she just got broken up with, and she's crying with a bottle of wine, and I'm just like, yes, yes, I remember those days. So I'm just wondering, do you ever have those moments, do you romanticize your drug of choice or just any substance anymore, or are you past that as well? So I love that you shared too, because you were saying, you know, the terminally unique thing I thought I was the only one that doesn't really have the cravings or anything like that, so it's nice to hear you speak about these things also, and that you're around you know, cocaine and these things still, is also, uh, nice to hear. I still want to go out. I still want to dance. I still want to have a good time. And I don't, I do have sober friends. Like, before I got sober, I didn't know anyone sober, really. And it's so funny how, when you change, it's almost like, the world opens up and like you start making connections with people who are similar minded or want to do the same things but not a lot of people I feel like at least the sober people I know feel comfortable or confident enough to test, I'm air quoting test, but test their sobriety in places like The nightclub or like the bar or like wherever I find myself. So yeah. It's a neuroscience thing. I just read about it and I forgot what it's called, but it's a, it's a phenomenon. So like, once I had twins, I saw twins everywhere. It's a thing. It's a thing with our brains. And I forgot. I literally just read about it. I feel like I know what you're talking about too. It's the idea that, like, there's actually more, or if it's just this idea that, like, you're more aware of it. You're more aware of it, yeah, definitely. So yeah, that's a, that's a great question. That's that's interesting. So, like, yeah, I don't have cravings. That stuff, like, it stopped. I mean, I don't, I don't know that I ever, even year one, like, Like I said, like I would get angry, but it wasn't like, uh, it wasn't like cravings, like how, how people typically talk about it, you know, like, I don't know that I'm explaining this properly, but recently, I can say that, like, I don't romanticize it because. I know how to have fun without it. Uh, I'm not saying that you don't. But recently I did have this thought for a moment that was like why do I have to be perfect? Like, why, why can't I just be fucked up? Like, why, why can't I just you know, drink my brain away for a minute? Like, why do I have to be so efficient and strong? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, functioning God. So I recently noticed that I had that thought. But yeah, it just doesn't look fun to me anymore. And it's not like you were saying, it's not judging. You know, like, it's just it or it's like judging myself, right? Like, I know what I used to be like. So it's not like about other people. But like, I've seen this movie already. Like I know, I know where it's gonna go. So I'm able to like, play that tape through. So that helps me to not like, romanticize it. But recently I did have that thought of like, why can't I just be a mess for a minute or I don't know. Yeah. I sometimes I'm like, if, if, if I knew the world was ending, would I partake? But I would like to think, no, I would like to think that I would be content because I've just had so many days and nights where it's like, I've had more. times fucked up than sober. So I thought about that same question. Yeah, you thought about the same question? Yes. And what would your answer be? I would want to be sober because I'd want to be present. And like I can't say that, you know, like I'd want to remember because then like the world's ending. So what am I remembering, but I would want to be present. And I feel like that would be living my best life, you know, in those last moments. And like, that would be living it to the fullest. Like if I'm present and functioning, like if I was using substances, it's like the world had already ended. I would already be in another world, you know? SO speaking of presence, how has your parenting changed or has it changed since you've become sober? Um, I, I don't think personally it has. The girls are about to be 10 next month. So, you know, they're changing. So I get to share more and more with them, but I have always been a very open person. So this is part of my nature. This is how I've always been, right. So, I have shared with them like about my sober journey from the beginning when they were little and I used to try to put it in terms that they could best understand. So I would only talk about the alcohol substance, not the cocaine or marijuana or nicotine. And I would talk about it in terms of mental health. So I would say alcohol is a depressant. Mommy has depression when I had it. And so it doesn't make sense to engage in a depressant. So the older they got I'm just open about everything with them. And, uh, I think they truly value this, right? Like my one daughter says, mommy, you're perfect. And I'm like, no, baby, I'm not. You know, I'm like, I make mistakes and she's like, yeah, but you always apologize and recognize your mistakes. She's like, that's what makes you perfect. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, so sweet. That's amazing. Your girls are so wise. Yeah, no, they really are. Like, when my one daughter was three, when I was celebrating my birthday without their father, when he had left the first time, she said, If you want a cake, buy yourself a cake. And I was like, Oh! I mean, like, it's so simple, but it's so, like, valid. It's like, go buy yourself a cake. It reminds me of one of my favorite sayings, which is like, Give yourself the love that you seek, right? Your joy is your job, right? Yes, your joy is your job. I love that. So yeah, like my, my parenting it looks the same. Like we we don't use the word failure in this house. Because I've learned, you know, like through neuroscience, like how important linguistics are and our brains process. Failure is something permanent. So we talk about mistakes. I apologize to my Children. I know some parents don't feel their Children deserve apologies. I also give my Children explanations on my thought processes, and I know that a lot of parents don't Again, don't feel like children deserve an explanation they feel like, you know, if I say you must do this, like, that's enough, but I give them the explanations and they say, thanks mom for like helping us understand, you know, like why, you know, this or that. Yeah, I, I, uh, I don't see it. I don't see a change. I mean, of course, like I'm, you know, becoming healthier and things, but they, they see me as a human being. I don't I don't hide anything. I feel like also like as as hosts, like when I host these meetings, a lot of people. Want to like shield people from things. They want to remove, you know, people who aren't saying the right thing. They want to remove comments. And a lot of parents are the same way. They want to like you know, hide the bad things. I, I think they're all teachable moments. So I prefer to talk to my children about the bad and the ugly also, and then they can see me, I can model for them how to handle these things because that's real life, right? And of course I don't want them to like feel any pain or suffer as a mom, but like, you know, it's just like not realistic. So I, they see how I handle things. How I handle heartache, how I handle hardships, all these things so, you know, they see mommy's a human being and they see like also like mommy can make it through. Right. So they're learning the same things. Yeah, I love that. If you don't mind. I'm recently single. So I'm Back to navigating life as a sober woman, looking for love. And my past relationship for context was with a sober guy. It was the first sober man I dated. Yeah, I know, which was surprising and comparatively uh, a much healthier relationship, but we still had issues, which is why we're not together together. Anyway, we both bought our own things into the relationship, but I'm just wondering for you, are you open to love again since your divorce? And if so, do you feel like the person has to be sober or could you, or do you believe you could be in a relationship with someone who has, I'm assuming, a healthier relationship with drinking or substances as a whole? Such great questions. So recently I had to reframe something I was. So I told you, you know, that like, I'm such an open book and I've always been so open. Which helps me, because the more I share I let it all out I also connect with people, so I find out I'm not terminally unique I also gain information that I never would gain if I wasn't open about all these things, and then I also, it's like a ripple effect, and I help other people, which also makes me feel good, but recently I was shaming myself for something, which is like so unlike me, but I had, I have strong feelings for someone like strong romantic feelings. And I was shaming myself for it. I was like. I scheduled my romantic feelings for April 2024. I was like, why are you scheduling your romantic feelings? I love that. You're like, I'm booked and busy. I don't have time for feelings right now. Because in my mind, I'm like, so right now I've been separated for a year. I'm like enough time would have passed. I would, I'm going to be healed next year. Like I would have sufficiently mourned my marriage, but you know, the morning my marriage, I think happened well before we physically separated. I think I've had sufficient time. But yeah, I was like, yeah, next year. But and I was shaming myself. I'm like, how could I do this? and then I reframed it and I was like, what am I doing? I was like, After everything I've been through, the trauma, you know, all these other things, the relationships that didn't work out, like all the things that happened in those relationships, I am still capable of loving someone and I'm shaming myself for that? I was like, that is It's something to be proud of. Like a lot of people become bitter and jaded and not, not shaming them either because that's what people do to survive. You do what you can to survive. Right. But for me to be still so like open and loving is like something to be proud of. So that was a huge reframe that I had recently. But I also recognize that love is not enough, right? If love, if love was enough, I would still be in my marriage because boy did I love that man. So I still recognize that, uh, just because I, I can't choose who I love is how I feel, but I can choose who I'm with. Uh, so even though I love somebody doesn't mean, uh, that we have all the things to make it you know, like a healthy and, uh, like a relationship that's You know, what I deserve or like that's going to work type thing. The, the sober partner thing is very interesting. I don't think I need somebody to be sober to be with, but like, it has to look, not look a certain way, right? So like right. Learning, like, what we don't want is also just as valuable, so,, I don't know, I guess I'm still figuring out, but, like, yeah, you know, daily use of something is not going to work for me, and, uh, like, dependence on something, like, you know, is just not going to work for me, or where it's, like, affecting our relationship, where we can't have conversations, where the person's, like, not, you know, in their right mind, or something like that. Yeah. I was having a conversation with a friend and they were like, because I, I guess I just came out of a sober relationship or with someone sober, they were like, Oh, but you only date sober guys. And I was like, that's the only sober person I've ever dated. I just need someone to your point that can show up and be in their present mind and like, doesn't need to have a substance every day to where it's like. their main focus or like they can't function properly without it. You know what? Just because somebody's sober doesn't mean that they're the person also. So there's a lot of sick people, sobriety, uh, 100%. Yeah. I going back to that first sponsor you had as well. Like that's a great reference to you. So I think, yeah, it just depends on the person. But I'm hoping that at this stage of my life, the person I am today is going to attract. Someone who is capable of loving me in the same or in a similar capacity, but I love the part where you mentioned, like, just because I love someone because we can't always control our feelings, doesn't mean that we're meant to be together, or we should be together at least. Somebody That I, I learned so much about so much from my favorite educational neuroscientist Stacy Danford. I spoke to her about this recently and she said, like you were talking about attracting people right. She said a healing person will. So I feel like I, yeah, right, so good. But can you elaborate on that? Because there's like this running like inside joke, even in sobriety. I see it too. It's like, you can't be healed. but do you disagree? Do you feel like you can be healed from certain things? Like you mentioned, like your depression is healed. So like, I guess you can be healed from certain things. Yeah. I mean, like, there's always going to be more, right? Yeah. But like, it's the same way I feel about success. Like, I feel like I'm successful now, not Not when I find the right partner, not when I make money, not when this or that, I feel like I'm successful now. But I know that there's some people like, that are going to be like, what's next, what's, what's next. And for me, I feel like that would take away some of my peace. And I feel the same way. There's always going to be something to work on, you know, in terms of personal growth, something more to heal. buT that doesn't mean that I can't have a healthy relationship now. And the same way, like you don't have your life doesn't have to be perfect to help other people. You know, I, I was a psychotherapist and I was doing a lot of good and helping people, even though there were parts of my life that I still had to work on. And now I'm going to start coaching for the reframe app. And again, there's stuff that I am working on. I'm a human being. Right. But that doesn't mean that I can't do so much good for other people. So. Absolutely. Yeah, I love that because I think so much so many people myself included, we delay our sense of gratification or worthiness because we're like, Oh, when I hit this milestone and when I get to this level, and it's like you don't get to reflect or see the beauty in the process. process of you getting there, first of all. And then the other part is like this arbitrary there, like it doesn't really exist. So there's always going to be another, another level. So appreciate right now. And that's what she, that's what that educational neuroscientist taught me. Also, like she said, it's important for our brains to to, uh, celebrate daily accomplishments and not wait for those big milestones. So I do the, I do the every month thing. Instead of waiting for like the six months, like the nine. You know, like the one year. But yeah, she said it's good for our brains to like, you know, train our brains to not wait for the big things and to be proud every day. I absolutely love that. And that's going to lead kind of like to one of my last questions for you, which is from a psychological standpoint, because you're just a wealth of knowledge here, what would you recommend? No, I sincerely mean that, like, I've learned so much in conversation. And I would love to just know, like, what are some of your top recommendations or tips to help people snap out of or kind of get to this place where they can either get sober or sustain their sobriety. I know there's two separate strands there, but just I think so many people are starting to become more self aware. I think we can see across the board there is the societal shift where we're recognizing that alcohol isn't probably not the healthiest thing for us or any substance I think I say alcohol because that was like my main drug of choice, amongst other things but and it's like so legal and hidden in plain sight. So I think people are just more attuned to the fact that alcohol is not healthy for us. And like, maybe they have an unhealthy relationship with it. So there's that piece. What can people do to reframe their relationship with alcohol and sustain a positive or change their relationship altogether? This is your toughest question for me. Um, So, okay, I saw something like a long time ago on online that I thought was so important. It said your job is not to save other people. It's to save yourself and show them how it's done, right? Like seven years ago, I kind of learned that the hard way. I felt like it was my job to help, help everyone, fix everyone, save everyone. And it was to the detriment of my own wellbeing. I ended up being diagnosed with like six illnesses and like all these things, right? And it was also hard for me because I was practicing as a psychotherapist and I didn't know how to not like, you know, in my personal life, not help people. Now I recognize. The best thing I can do is lead by example, uh, show people how it's done, show them the benefits, like, you know, but still like, I have some people in my life, right. That are trying to, uh, get sober. And I see the things that they can do differently. I see, I see how to help them, but, uh, like, you know, everyone's ready when they're ready. They, they have to go through their own journey. People figure out for themselves, like, uh, one of my really good friends is trying to do it on his own. I know that he cannot do it on its own. I'm not being an asshole. Like I think like, Oh, like he's an idiot. He can't do it on his own. I know that it doesn't work that way. Right. Yeah. I know that the opposite of addiction is connection, we need something, some program, doesn't have to be AA, doesn't have to be Reframe, something, connection on Instagram, whatever. But he's gotta figure it out on his, on his own, right? And, uh, I'm literally right here for him. But when he's ready, you know, when he's ready, I will share everything that I can. So yeah, it's hard for me to say, like, You know, once it's all like there is no prescribed necessarily like here you go package stay sober good luck. I agree with that. And I, the irony is, there have been so many relationships in my life that have suffered because of My addiction and then also other people's addiction and I was so busy trying to be similar to you be the fixer help other people. I think by nature. That's just how I am. Meanwhile, behind the scenes. My life is falling apart and I'm in the shackles of addiction and personal addiction. But when I got sober unintentionally impacted. Other people. Oh. Like, it's remarkable how that happens. I think people just saw how I was Yeah. And changing and evolving and they were like, yeah, I want a little slither of that, or I just noticed that she seems happier. She seems healthier. And that's why these conversations are just so important. Absolutely. I've had people tell me the same thing, you know, like, and it's funny because one of my, my own fears or my limiting beliefs was that like, No one's going to want to be around me when I'm like the Debbie Downer, the sober Sally, you know, like, but it's actually the opposite. And just like you said, it's like, we're impacting people. We're showing people that there is another way to live and yes, three years and nine months ago, I had no idea I don't think I knew any sober people like no, no clue, right? Is there anything else that we can share? I want to connect you with everyone so that they can learn more about. How can we connect with you? And what would you like to share? Yeah, I guess, on Instagram, brownwonderwomen2023 yeah, like I, I love to hear from people, you know, these days when I say Please reach out to me. I truly mean it. I know what I can handle on my plate I'm I'm able to like you know, not have to respond to everybody's message right, right away. I know it's healthy for me. You know, and I won't, I won't say reach out to me and then like resent people for reaching out to me. So when I say please reach out to me, I truly mean it. Wherever anybody's at in their journeys, like I just. I just love to help in any way that I can. I have so many resources that have helped me throughout my journey that I'd love to share. And yeah, I host on Mondays and Wednesdays for the Reframe app. That is the time I can make for, for that and still be the mom that I, I want to be. And I'm going to start coaching soon, which I was so So nervous about because I take this stuff so seriously, right? Like, and I've never been a coach before. I've only been a psychotherapist, but it's really the same thing. And I really do already coach anyway. And I'm super excited to be like, like a brown woman, you know, like in a position of leadership and be able to help people in these like sober spaces as a brown woman and My hope is to see, like, more people that look like me you know, sharing about sobriety, because I know they're out there. I had somebody one Indian guy reach out to me on Instagram the other day, so the more I keep posting, you know, like, it really, it really does help give other people permission too, you know, and he said thank you for sharing so openly, you know, that it's not common for our culture and these things. But yeah, I just, I just would love to help people in any way I can. I post all kinds of stuff on Instagram about my life. I, I love taking pictures to remind my own brain of how good life is. But I also share like about the bad and the ugly. I don't brush that shit under the rug. So I, I write about all of that. And what else? Uh, Yeah, like sobriety is not boring. So you'll see like all the things that I do. Life is what you make it. So yeah, I've been called a lot of shit in my life, but boring is not one of them. So, so yeah, reach out to me. You guys heard it here. Thank you so much for coming on. And I'm going to plug all of that information in the show notes so everyone can connect with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay guys. So that's all I have to share. I also wanna say thank you for being here, and thank you for allowing me to hold space in your day as you listen to this podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please, please do me a favor and one, make sure you're following the show so that you can stay up to date with everything else that's happening. And two. Please, please leave a review as it helps more people find the show. I would appreciate even more if it's a five star review, but do what's right for you. Do what you think I deserve, thank you so much, and I'll see you next week. Bye bye.