The Sober Butterfly Podcast

Kathy's Story: Alcoholics Anonymous, Al-Anon, Debtors Anonymous, and Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous

• Nadine Benjamin

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In this episode of the Sober Butterfly podcast, host Nadine Mulvina interviews Kathy, a dedicated member of several 12-step programs including Alcoholics Anonymous, Al-Anon, Debtors Anonymous, and Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. Kathy opens up about her experiences with substance use and addiction, her tumultuous family background, and the journey to sobriety and recovery. Her story highlights the importance of anonymity, the impact of support systems, and the transformative power of these programs. The episode also touches on the concept of addiction transference and the holistic nature of recovery, offering listeners a profound and relatable perspective on tackling various forms of addiction.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

00:41 Kathy's Early Life and Family Struggles

03:53 Discovering Al-Anon and the Start of Recovery

06:23 Journey Through Multiple Anonymous Programs

11:00 Personal Struggles and Turning Points

19:47 First Year of Sobriety and Challenges

28:31 Personal Loss and Early Recovery Challenges

28:45 Learning to Follow the Steps

29:39 Self-Diagnosis and External Influences

31:05 Introduction to Debtors Anonymous

33:38 Tools and Practices in Debtors Anonymous

43:19 Exploring Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous

45:54 Overcoming Deep-Seated Trauma

51:31 Advice for Seeking Help

56:32 Conclusion and Contact Information


If you or someone you know is struggling with substance use or addiction, know that you are not alone and that help is available. Here are some resources for support:


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the-sober-butterfly_31_06-27-2024_185008:

The following episode contains sensitive subject matter related to substance use and addiction. Viewer discretion is advised.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Sober Butterfly podcast. I am Nadine Mulvina, and today I am here with a very special guest. Welcome Kathy to the show.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Hi, Nadine. Thanks so much. I'm so happy to be here.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

I'm so happy and honored to have you here and I hope it's okay. I'm just gonna be very open and forthcoming with this idea that you and I discussed the importance. Of your anonymity in this week's episode. And so I will just be referring to you as Kathy. So Kathy, thank you for coming on it's okay. If we just jump in.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Let's do it.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Okay. So Kathy, you shared with me earlier that you are a member of 4 different organizations. So you're a member of Al-anon on Alcoholics Anonymous. Debtor's Anonymous and Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. And I would love to hear you share a little bit about your journey and how you found yourself involved with multiple anonymous programs.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

I'm happy to share with you what's known as, our experience, strength and hope. So for me, I was working in Manhattan, probably the late, early 80s. I was working in Manhattan for Saks Fifth Avenue. They had their downtown offices in the Meatpacking District, which was really actually the Meatpacking District where there were Companies that were, selling meat, you know, and now it's

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Oh, wow.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

different scenario, but I was on 15th street between 9th and 10th Avenue and I was in my early twenties and I'm working with, my boss, her name is Paula, one point Paula says to me, Kathy, you seem so sad and you're not yourself lately. Is everything okay? And I remember thinking, wow, gee, she, she's perceptive, you know? And, I, I, I said, yeah, well, I'm not, I'm really not feeling so great, these days. And she said, well, why don't you come into my office and we can talk a little bit. more about what's going on in your personal life. So I went into her office and she shut the door and she said, what's going on? And I said, well, you know, I'm at home. I'm living at home with my mom and my sister and my stepdad and my mom's has really been escalating. And my sister, my older sister also has started to do, you know, heavy drugs. And it's really to watch the both of them. you know, do what they're doing to themselves. And, um, you know, just a quick, I'm going to step back and this may come again into the forefront, but just quickly, I'm now about 22 years old. I'm living in Northern New Jersey, working in Manhattan. I grew up in Newark, New Jersey. I spent the first 11 years of my life in Newark, New Jersey. my dad was a jazz musician. My mom was, Both a homemaker and kind of a part time secretary administrative assistant. And both my parents, who were incredibly, you know, creative and passionate, and fun and loving, were also consumed with, alcoholism and, And drugs. And there was a lot of domestic violence in my home that my sister and I witnessed little kids. So, uh, my parents, you know, eventually separated, my sister, my mother, and I moved to another town. My father moved to Miami, Florida. during the time of the separation, which was very traumatic for my mom, even though the level of violence in the home was, was severe, it was very severe, She was still devastated by my father's choosing to leave the marriage and move south. we moved together. And during that time, her drinking escalated and my sister's also, drug use escalated. So I'm sitting in my boss's office at Paula and I'm telling her about my family's drinking. And she said, have you ever heard of Al Anon? And I said, no, what's that? She said, I think it's for people whose families drinking. and I think it's like, it's about, you know, if your family or a friend is drinking, you can go there for help. She said, what, what do you think? Would you, would you? Would you be willing to check it out? I've heard about it and it sounds like it would be something that you could check out and you could benefit from. And she had a yellow pages. This is, you know, this is the eighties. There's a yellow pages. Nadine, you're so gorgeous and young. I

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

I

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

that you've ever seen a yellow page.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

know the yellow pages.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

great.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

An anthology of numbers, essentially.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Exactly. So she pulls out a yellow pages and says, here's a number to call. you know, maybe, maybe there's somewhere they have meetings and, you know, this is all new to me. I had no idea, you know, 1983, 22 years old, 1982, you know, and I called and there was a meeting that was very close to where I lived in New Jersey I went. I went, I was feeling so helpless, to watch my mother who was, you know, angry. She, you know, she was so loving and kind when she was not drinking. And when she drank, she just was very angry and, wasn't pretty, you know, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And then of course, to see my beautiful sister, you know, stumbling into our home and, Being vulnerable. She was in vulnerable position. So I went into this meeting and I went in and, there was a group of ladies sitting at the table and there simultaneously was an alcoholic synonymous meeting happening. And I remember just kind of like seeing two different signs and walking into the Al Anon meeting. I remember going into the room and, the women said, welcome. they said their names, I have a vague recollection. One in particular had this really blonde, blonde hair and a lot of makeup on and just kind of a dramatic look. and they said, welcome. and they said, you know what this is? And I said, not really. I said, but I'm here because I really want you to tell me how I can, make my mom stop drinking. they said, this is not about that. This is about you and what you can do for yourself, in regards to living with someone who you deeply care about, who's drinking, and that started my journey of 12 step programs, Al Anon.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing. I actually got chills, Cathy, when you were sharing parts of your story, in particular about, the pain you felt seeing firsthand how alcohol affected your home, specifically your sister and your mom. And I resonate with parts of that in the sense that, you feel powerless over seeing Your loved ones deteriorate or act differently on a substance like alcohol. And when you said Dr. Jacko, Mr. Hyde, like that's, those are words I've used to describe my mother's relationship with alcohol when she was drinking, thank God she doesn't drink anymore, She was the kindest, sweetest person. Just to echo some of the sentiments that you shared when she was sober, you could just see the torment and the pain, When she started to drink and she would lash out and just become a different person. I didn't recognize. And that's terrifying. And so I can't wait to hear more of your story because I know that you're also a part of Alcoholics Anonymous. So I'm going to make an assumption here that you Somewhat followed that pathway with your drinking or you're using and I hope I'm not being too presumptuous, but it's so interesting because I feel like when you grow up in a household where people abuse substances, it's almost like you have this loathing this hatred because you see firsthand what it does to the other person. But yet it's, there's still like, an alluring aspect, like, how do we find ourselves in similar predicaments? So I can't wait to hear more of your story. And thank you for sharing those parts so far.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Thank you. and I'm so glad you can identify, you know, I think that's the, you know, the, the beauty of recovery is that, we had grown up and obviously you and I don't know each other until this moment, but that you would also have these experiences and you know what it's like to be in a home where there's, active alcoholism and how, just how it turns so quickly, you know, and how scary it is. I so appreciate that. what I slowly learned is that alcoholism is a family disease that each one of us has alcoholism the sense of we may not be drinking, so to speak, but we do have behaviors or attitudes and we either are enabling the alcoholic or were letting the alcoholic kind of deal with their own lives. But it's our behavior to the whole family system is connected. you know, whether the person is drinking or not, I personally, took my first drink when I was 12 I drank and I remember I liked it, very much. I remember getting drunk and I remember wanting to do it again. I was the kind of drinker that was more of a periodic, like I wasn't drinking every day. I didn't want to drink every day. but I did want to drink and I did look forward to it. So throughout, high school and then into college, there was, bi weekly episodes of me drinking and getting drunk, while in Al Anon, I was introduced briefly to ACA, Adult Children of Alcoholics, someone recommended that I go to a meeting in Manhattan, and that might be a little bit more of a deeper recovery for me, so I was open, I was very open, and I was very willing, and I felt the benefits of Al Anon, just the relief of like, didn't cause this. I can't control this. I can't cure this. I can learn how to cope with this. So I started going to ACA in Manhattan down on, Cooper square. There was a Cooper square meeting and I'd go after work and I have an aunt who lives in Manhattan and I would stay with her all the time. at that ACA meeting, I met a man, his name was Alan. And Alan and I just were friends. We, you know, we'd see each other weekly. We started to talk, we'd have coffee and he was older than I was. He'd lived in Manhattan. He was a playwright. He was just a very kind person. I started to open up about my drinking. And he said to me, you be, you be open to going to an AA meeting? I said, me, you know, me, I, you know, like he said, yeah, I'm, you know, there's a meeting on Perry street. it's a great meeting. Let's go together. and I said, okay, yeah, I'll go. And I remember we got there and before going into Perry street, which is a great meeting in Manhattan, it's called the emergency room of AA. people who are going in in various stages of their recovery. He said, please don't compare yourself with the speaker or with anybody in the room. Just identify with the feelings of the speaker. walked in, we sat down, the lights are dimmed. It's a full room and I start to listen I'm listening. all of a sudden, a transvestite walks in with a, a blonde matted wig, wearing a pink tutu. And this person goes over to where the coffee and the cookies are being served and starts eating cookies and takes a carton of milk and starts drinking and the milk is dripping down there, pink tutu, and I just focused on that because I thought that was amazing. That's crazy. That is so crazy. And after the meeting, my friend Alan and I talked and I said, I'm not that crazy. He said, no, no, don't compare yourself people. but the seed was planted. The seed was

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

right?

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

shortly after that, maybe two or three years later, my drinking continued. And then I started, doing other things, which accelerated my bottom, thank God. and I went to Alcoholics Anonymous, for my own alcoholism.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Wow, that's powerful. That's really powerful. And that was really solid advice that Alan gave you, which is don't compare yourself, but it's so easy to fall prey to. I'm not this, like, I can't resonate with this, but it's more so connecting to the feelings as mentioned. So I'm glad that later on, as you mentioned, you got to a place where it seemed like maybe it was harder for you to deny. You're drinking and how it was impacting your life. Or as people like to say, the powerlessness, the chaos of your own, life. So do you mind sharing with us what that looked like? Was there a turning point for you? I don't necessarily like to reference rock bottoms, but what got you to a place of surrendering fully?

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Thank you. and I just want to say, Nadine, I think you hit the nail on the head with, that human connection, you know, that we're all, it doesn't matter, they say in the program, it doesn't matter if you come from Yale or jail, Park Avenue or Park Bench, alcohol is the great equalizer, you know, I think I wasn't ready. You know, I know the seed was planted at that Perry Street meeting. And I know my friend just heard, the therapeutic value of one alcoholic talking to another. He could see it was, certainly self diagnosed. He didn't say, Kathy, you're an alcoholic. but he brought me to that meeting and That made an impression on me. So yeah, we're going to fast forward to 1986. I'm 25 years old and I'm just miserable. I have a great job. I'm working as a flight attendant with a major airline. I'm traveling a great deal. I have a boyfriend. I'm living in Manhattan now with my aunt. on the outside, things seem to be. Great. You know, I'm going to London and Italy and, you know, on my excursions as a flight attendant. This is a job I've always wanted. boyfriend, do you know, I, and we'll go into that a little bit later on, but you know, he's there, you know, and of course we're drinking. He

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

a part in the story I'm sure, but yes, he's a boyfriend. He's a man.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

does, he does. And I'm so grateful for him. And, you know, we, we have a lot in common, mostly that we drink and drug the same really, and that kind of keeps us bonded. So it's New Year's Eve 86, 87. And, I'm just feeling like I hate myself, my life. it sucks. I know that once I start drinking alcohol, I can't stop. And then once I start drinking, then I want to find these other substances, which are very expensive. And, you know, then I have to call my dealer and I have to, you know, it's like a whole thing. And new year's Eve, I'm with my boyfriend, Joey at the time. And, drank everything. We did all the drugs we could. And I was, I couldn't, I didn't feel high. And I heard very clearly a voice, whisper to me, Kathy. You need help. And it wasn't Joey, you know, and I heard that really loud and clear. And I remember being told as a kid from my grandmother on my dad's side, that I had a guardian angel. there was always going to be a guardian angel watching out for me. And I felt like that was a voice from an entirely different place. And, I went home. I was in New Jersey where Joey lived. I went home and I called Alcoholics Anonymous. And this was in January of 1987. And I said, you know, I, I, I need help. I need to, I need to get to an AA meeting. And, know, there was, this is before the internet and before, you know, just, you know, then. And they said, well, there's a meeting tonight right where you live. It's just a few blocks from where you live. it said, you know, whatever time it was, it was in the early evening seven or 7 30. And they said, Can you make it there tonight? And I said, Well, I I think so. You know, I think so. And, they said, well, you can always come here and get a meeting list. So this was where, the Flatiron building, Flatiron building is on, in, on 23rd street. And I remember I walked to the Flatiron building and it's cold out and I'm walking in the building and looking for AA, it's called AA intergroup. And I'm looking around and this little old lady comes up to me and she says, looking for that room right over there. said, we alcoholics know each other now, don't we? And, that was

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Wow.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

So I, yeah, I got to, I feel like that was my grandmother too, you know, guardian angels. I got to a meeting that night and on my way there, I have to see Nadine now. I'm, I'm like three weeks shy of my 26th birthday. And I'm thinking I'm on my way to Alcoholics Anonymous. My life is over. I'm with bums. I'm there. They're a bunch of bums, you know, and I walk into this meeting, it was packed, it was an anniversary meeting. People were dressed better than I was. They spoke better than I did. I mean, they were gorgeous. I'm like, this is AA, you know,

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

they have what I want. Yep. That's so powerful. Now, during this time, were you still going to Al and all meetings or had you kind of left that to the side?

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

it was Al Anon and ACA.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Oh, right.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

And then also ACA had brought me, it was strongly recommended that I go into therapy. And my aunt, who had a lot of experience with therapy and therapists, recommended a therapist. And so a lot, of what I was doing was going into therapy and ACA meetings. And the therapist who I started to get honest with about my drinking and my drug use said to me, I told him about an episode and also around that time around November, you know, they say it's a threefold disease, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's, it's like those three, I told him about an episode of my drinking and drug use. And he very clearly said to me, You're wasting my time you're wasting your money if you continue to drink and drug because we're not going to make any progress

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Wow.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

if you're drinking and drugging like this and it like when he said that to me No one had ever said it to me. So Bluntly, I felt like a cold glass of water was poured in my face Cause he was giving me an ultimatum. He was being so honest. And I thought, wow. So that also was part of the, you know, really waking up, to then go into Alcoholics Anonymous.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Wow. That's so powerful. I also had, An amazing therapist who helped me get to a place to accept help and she had more of a low touch approach and I think I needed that because similar to when your friend Alan he didn't directly say to you, I think you're an alcoholic. Like maybe that would have scared you at that moment. I think over the course of several months of working with her, she just kept asking me. Okay, after episode, after episode, every week, you know, I'm telling her stories, common denominator is always drugging and alcohol and she kept saying, well, how would you define your relationship with alcohol or with substances until, you know, eventually I could no longer deny that it was extremely problematic and so that that's what helped me get into the rooms, but like, I think, you know, it's just sometimes we need the direct approach. The mirror, it's almost like a mirror being held up to you. It's like, I can no longer deny that I need help. so that's really, really powerful. And I'm glad that your therapist encouraged you to stop wasting your time and their time. so what did life look like for you once you started actually accepting the support that you needed? did it change? Immediately, did you start to notice small changes? Was it like a full, like, full transformation? Like, how would you define that 1st year? I think so many people focus on, like, year 1. So do you remember or recall what your experiences were like then?

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

I do. I appreciate you kind of bringing me back. To that moment, because when I walked into the meeting that I did, which became my home group, which is called the Gramercy group, which is still around, you know, when I first walked in and at that meeting, they ask if anyone is here for the very first time. And I remember raising my hand and just saying, I'm Kathy and I think I'm an alcoholic. And after that meeting, all these women. Came up to me and surrounded me and gave me phone numbers and said, call me. I'm going to a meeting tomorrow night. Call me. I'm speaking at a meet. I know. I didn't know what they were talking about. Really. I'd had no idea. I just knew that I felt, I just couldn't go on the way that I was. I just couldn't go on because there was no, no relief in alcohol, no relief in drugs, no relief in my boyfriend, no relief in travel, everything that I look to, to kind of take me, like to get high with was not working. and so I called a woman the next day and she said, Oh, I'm speaking at a meeting. Why don't you join me? and I went and then I slowly learned, you know, you don't drink. A day at a time, no matter what happens, no matter how you're feeling. If you get the job, boyfriend, whatever of your dreams, or if you lose everything, you don't drink no matter what. that you change people, places, and things. And that meant, my boyfriend, that meant my family. I had to, not that I could change them, but I couldn't see them for a long time. I couldn't see my mom and I couldn't see my sister, for at least the first 90 days of mine. sobriety. it was too much of a trigger. It was, it was, you know, the, the rooms of a were pulling me into sobriety and they, they, they were pulling me and I could feel my disease pulling me in the opposite direction. I knew that I was powerless over alcohol. I knew that once I drank. I couldn't stop. I didn't think my life was unmanageable. I still worked. I was in such denial. I really didn't know how sick I was. I thought this was normal. I knew that the way I drank, I couldn't do it, but I didn't think my life was unmanageable. So it took a long time. That first year my sponsor would say to me, I said, I don't know if I'm really an alcoholic. And she would say, listen, just today, don't drink, go to a meeting. Let's start some step work. make sure you call me and you brush your teeth and you eat a cheeseburger. And, I remember crying and crying and crying that first year. I missed alcohol. I didn't realize the, The deep relationship we had, I didn't realize how I relied on alcohol because I was not a daily drinker. I looked like I had my stuff together. you would see me from the outside looking in and I presented well, and I had a smile on my face. Certainly as a flight attendant, that's kind of part of our training. I joined a major airline and they say, the first thing they tell you is you've given up your right to a bad mood. But it helped with my,

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Wow.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

mechanism. Like you weren't going to get in. I was going to be as kind as you know, kind as I possibly could. So that first year was strictly on the first step not drinking changing people places and things crying. I've got angry 90 days. I took a yellow pages and I ripped it to shreds I took, you know, I had pencils in my room and I broke. I was so angry. so angry. and my sponsor and the women in the room and the men too, you know, the men too were so helpful. just said to me, listen, just keep coming and don't drink and it's, it's all going to be all right. And it was on, on a year, probably it was on my year anniversary. Uh, I was at a meeting called, living sober. I really accepted that I was an alcoholic. I truly accepted, and I just totally surrendered. And, I felt so much better, but it was, it was a fight. I was fighting it. but I'm grateful that I didn't drink and I just trusted the people and I trusted the program to, to get me to where I needed to go. I really didn't know, but I, I trusted on some level.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

I also remember feeling extremely angry and the people I was leaning on for support were telling me I was an alcoholic and I was very much in denial because I was like, how dare you? Like, you don't even know me. Like it's this resistance, right? It's like, I don't want to receive this label because of all of the stigma

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Yes.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

and the comparison. Once again, like my drinking, it wasn't quite like you. I thought I was a social drinker. Like I mainly drink. When I was out and about, but I could never manage my drinking. I could never stop. I could never have one. and then of course the progressive nature of alcoholism, I would drink more and more for me, timeline wise pandemic. completely exasperated, like so many others, my drinking. So now I was drinking at home. But I was still completely in denial. So I think I, and many people can relate to this idea of like, I don't want this label of an alcoholic because A, I don't really understand what that fully entails. And B, I don't like this idea of a label defining me. So I feel like that's almost a good transition how did you confront or deal with any stigma or any, you know, stereotypes the term alcoholic, did that change your perception of self? Did that change your relationship with others? did you deal with any judgment or shame from accepting that you were an alcoholic?

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

that's a great question. in the mid eighties, so many people started to come into the program and get sober and, I would see, people that I'd seen on TV or at a movie, at a meeting. people will be like, Oh, it's cool to get sober. It's cool to be sober. And I'm like, I know. Well, you know, it was really out of desperation. but I felt like, you know, from the thirties to the eighties, because I think early on, it was such a stigma. you know, early on, cause my perception too, like I thought when I first, as I said, you know, I thought these were Bowery bums. So my perception changed. Like I'm sitting next to, college professors and CEOs. And, you know, I'm sitting next to, educated people. this is not what Alcoholics Anonymous is. So it really helped to open my mind, and also there were young people. There were people my age, 25, 26, 27 year olds who had been sober for like a year or two years. they seemed so happy. there was a joy. they were doing fun things. They were, going out, they were skiing and traveling and going to the movies and, having parties sober. So I thought, wow, the whole world opened up, from being in Alcoholics Anonymous. I think for me, I realized that. You know, because I didn't understand it. A lot of people just don't understand. They don't understand that alcoholism has no boundaries. It's not confined to people who are, you know, on the street or have no teeth or have no family. It touches everyone. and there were times though, you know, and this is my own. I have a, you know, a story. I reached out to an old boyfriend, I always wanted a boyfriend. I had to have a boyfriend, had to have a boyfriend, boyfriend, boyfriend, boyfriend. Um, So I remember them saying no relationships for the first year and I thought you guys are crazy. I mean, I'm not going to drink and I'm not going to drug and I'm not going to have a boyfriend. Are you crazy?

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Wait, so did you break up with Joey? What happened with Joey?

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

I did.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Okay.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

who I drunk, you know, I drank with, who were calling me and I had my drug dealer who was calling me and I said, you know, I, I can't see you right now. I just can't see you right now. Maybe it'll at a later date, but right now I can't, I remember my drug dealer. know, coming over and said, don't worry, I'm not going to, I'm not going to do anything. I'm not going to like shove anything up your nose or I'm not going to force you. I just want to see you. I just want to spend time with you. And he came into Manhattan and I got into his car and he had a joint in his ashtray. And I said, I can't do this. I'm sorry. I can't do this. So yeah,

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Yeah.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

And sadly, Joey died. Joey died of alcoholism, sadly.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Oh,

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

five

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

That's really sad.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

And a lot of people, know, it kills, it does kill. the disease does kill. So I've had a lot of people in my life, my family members as well. My sister included who died of alcoholism. So yeah, Joey and I broke up.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

sorry, Kathy.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Thank you, Nadine. Thank you. Appreciate that. I did reach out to a boyfriend early on. I was on the first step and I said to my sponsor, I want to make amends, I want to do the ninth step. of course my motive was not pure. I didn't want to really make

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Right,

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

wanted a boyfriend. And she said to me, I'm gonna, I'm going to strongly suggest. you don't do that. Not yet. said, and you're an alcoholic, you're going to do whatever you want to do. You know, I can't tell you what to do. I'm going to strongly suggest. So I wrote him this really letter about how I was so sorry and I really would like to get back to him and I'm out. And he called me up and he said to me, you know, when I think about it now, he said, I'm so sorry. You're an alcoholic synonym. I'm so sorry. I really hope you, you, you know, like I was a leper, you know, Yeah,

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

I cannot believe it. It's for you.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

and I learned my lesson to always check my motives and to do the steps in order that they are created so yeah, so my perception changed people around me You know, I was also 26 now, 27. And people would say to me, you're so young. They would say, You're not an alcoholic. And my sponsor said to me, it's not for them to determine that Kathy. It's a self diagnosed disease. You'll know if you're an alcoholic or not. So that was very helpful.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Yeah. That's very profound. And I think the self-diagnosis piece is you have to trust yourself to know, right? Like you, and I think the beauty of removing the alcohol is that you gain, or the substance is that you gain more clarity, like you're more intuitive and you can connect with your inner self. a lot more clearly. And yeah, that's the most difficult part because it's sometimes like you're going back to that resistance, right? You're fighting yourself and there's outside influences. You have people in this camp on one side telling you, Kathy, Nadine, you're not an alcoholic. What are you talking about? Maybe they have an issue with alcohol. And then, of course, you have people in the programs, in the rooms, telling you, like, I, I see myself in you. Like, you're an alcoholic. So it can be very conflicting, but ultimately, your sponsor was 100 percent correct. Like, you know if you're an alcoholic or not. there is an inner voice. I think I always knew. But I just ignored it or tried to subdue it. but definitely can identify with that as well. So I'm curious about the other membership. So we have so far we've covered Al Anon, we've covered, Alcoholics Anonymous, but you also mentioned that you were a part of other organizations as well. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that story or that journey that led you to seek membership with those groups?

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Yeah, no, I'd be happy to. I was probably about five years sober and I went to get my hair cut in Manhattan and the woman cutting my hair was a friend of mine from AA and she's cutting my hair. Her name is Sharon. I'm telling her that, you know, I never seem to have any money. working full time. have a great job. I never seem to know where my money goes. I can't seem to pay my bills on time. I'm really confused around money. And she said to me. have a program for you. It's called debtors anonymous. And I said, what's that? She said, well, it's for people who are very vague about their money and who seemed to constantly be. incurring debt or living credit card to credit card or don't know where their money goes. she was dating, at the time, this is like a non conference approved book. His name is Jerry Mundus. He's since passed away. He wrote a book. How to get out of debt, stay out of debt and live prosperously. And, Jerry was in debtors anonymous and she said, there's a meeting tonight in Manhattan, of course. And, why don't you go? And I went, I went and I, I remember sitting there going again, my perception like, oh my God, debtors anonymous. sounds bad. Now, what am I doing? and again, a group of beautiful, well dressed, articulate, educated men and women who are talking about how they've gotten clear with their money because they realized that they had this compulsion to do it. To debt. and I'm just going to say, so this is 1990. It's now 2024. I, Nadine have been in and out of debtors anonymous for these many years. And the last four years committed to debtors anonymous recommitted. And now I'm solvent. when I say that I'm solvent, that means that I have not incurred. any unsecured debt since, June 28th, 2021. and in Debtors Anonymous. Thank you. What a blessing. Debtors Anonymous is just an amazing, amazing program. It has brought me to a level of clarity and, freedom that I hadn't really experienced in AA. I needed to go deeper. I needed to stop another compulsive, Behavior in which I was punishing myself with the lack of clarity around money. and I can certainly go into more of the details, but that's how I was introduced to debtors anonymous. And I'm so grateful that it's and I'm happy to talk more about it or talk to anybody, if anybody's interested, if they hear this and want to hear more about it, and certainly if you have any questions about it, Nadine.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Yeah, thank you so much, Kathy. I feel like here's the thing. When we get sober, I think one of the, I guess I'll call it a misconception because I think it's misunderstood. You just think that all parts of your life will fall into place. And I experienced, I believe a little bit of an addiction transferral and you mentioned before this idea of compulsion where it's like, if you're not necessarily getting to the root causes of what's driving some behaviors and connected to the alcoholic brain, I'll call it self sabotage. Like, I think a big part of it for myself in terms of overspending, I actually did an episode in my podcast about overspending and sobriety on self care in the name of, I'm going to air quote self care, right? This umbrella term that encompasses so many different things that I think so many sober people fall prey to because we think that like, Oh, if I'm not spending my money. on toxic substances, it's okay, but also, where is my money? So I think a big part of it, I'll just sum it up to say for myself at least, is feeling less than. Like, feeling a hole, an emptiness, and needing to fill that hole. I think I used to fill that hole with alcohol and with drugs, and I experienced, especially in early sobriety, and I'm still not like fully there yet, I'm still working on this. but yeah, this need to like, need to, to buy, almost to like supplement. A feeling and I can't necessarily articulate what that feeling is other than I think it's an inferiority feeling like I'm not enough. So very much interested to learn more of a tenants of, it's it's called debtors. Anonymous

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Debtor's Anonymous.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

are the tenants similar to alcoholics? Anonymous? Are you doing step work? I'm just very curious because I feel like so many people would benefit from learning more about this program.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Absolutely, it's the 12 step model of Alcoholics Anonymous and you know, it's, changed and customized to, you know, we're powerless over a compulsive debt. And our lives have become unmanageable and absolutely there's literature. There's a 12, 12 in debtors anonymous. There are the signs of compulsive debting, kind of the signposts, you know, like, vague about, terms and conditions, shopping, always shopping for a good deal. always having a crisis around money. definitely that not feeling enough. And in those 12 signs of compulsive debting, I saw myself. The vagueness the inability to to kind of have a conversation around money, like a normal conversation, like shame would come up, confusion would come up. and I just knew that there was something that I had to address. So in debtors anonymous, there's also the 12 tools. The tools and, the first tool is meetings, sponsorship. And then what we do is we keep our numbers. So each day we're recording what money comes in, if any, and what money's going out. And we can record those numbers anyway. We choose whatever works for us. as long as I do it, I'll say for myself. So I have an app on my phone and I'll record, you know, today I went grocery shopping before I. Got on the call with you. I got gas. and I paid some tolls on the Garden State Parkway. And I recorded them in my app. So I'm clear, the numbers. And then, one of the other tools is, having a pressure relief group. a pressure relief group, happens after one has become familiar with the program. And they've had their numbers for, say, 30, 60, or 90 days. And they have some pressures. And the pressures could be, dramatic, certainly it could be you're being evicted, you've just been fired, you have a medical concern, or it can be just like, I don't know really how to spend my money. I don't know what I'm doing, you know, and so two people will come together. that have solvency, at least 90 days of solvency. And they'll sit with you, sit with me, and I tell them my numbers, my income, my outgo, and then they help me to formulate a spending plan and an action plan. when I sat down and I've gone through the steps of Debtors Anonymous and I have sponsees now, in DA, who I'm so grateful for. you know, we just, just kind of get clear, just get clear. And the main thing is not to debt. That means not to incur any unsecured debt, which means I don't use a credit card. I don't use a credit card. I either pay in cash I set aside the funds and I'll use a debit card, I'm not living above my means. I'm not living in denial. And it's definitely, I think you hit the core. I think you're very astute. me just say how astute I think you are, Nadine, and just the questions that you're asking and the way that you're asking. I so appreciate your, um, your focus. So it definitely is this thing of like, I'm not enough. I don't have enough. I'm not enough. never be enough. so it's, it's a fabulous, fabulous program and I wish more people knew about it for sure.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I think more people now are learning about it and yeah, I think you're helping so many people and I think even reflecting on my own story and my own situation. It's yeah, not feeling enough. the irony of that is I think we have the dopamine rush. When we buy things, whether we need them or not, or we convince ourselves that we need them and the rush comes. It's the high that I think I'm always chasing in one form or another. And then it goes away. And then I feel like I need my next high. Constant ebb and flow between, you know, it's never enough. And then I also, in the same breath, I'll share this, Kathy. I get overwhelmed when I have too much stuff, when it's too much clutter. and of course you can spend your money in various things. Like I've definitely overspent with travel. I tell myself, Oh, like these are, you know, unforgettable moments. You can't buy that, but it comes at a cost, right? So it's just like all of these things, I'm whether it's tangible or not living. I think you hit it. Hit it on the head, like living above your means is living. Also, I think in denial because you're not being transparent and you're not being accountable or held accountable. And it's so easy to continue living in denial because you don't want to look at the numbers and you don't want to see how, how much you dug a hole until maybe you're faced with, you know, Something that you can't, you can no longer deny. And it's beautiful to like, try and get there before you're forced to get there. So I think that's so amazing that you haven't incurred any new debt since 2021 and you're not using credit cards I think so many people can benefit from that because when you have true stability and security with your finances. It lends itself to other areas of your life feeling more secure and feeling more. just in control, I think as well as just to know where you are in life. So that's so powerful. So thank you for sharing that.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Yes, you're

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the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

I love this next one because I haven't heard of it and I think I need to maybe Learn more about it, which is this idea of sex and love addicts anonymous. I've never heard of sex and love addicts anonymous. Can you share a little bit more about what led you to sex and love, anonymous and what that looks like?

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

my very first introduction to sex and love at X anonymous. was at a meeting in Manhattan and I was probably maybe eight or nine years sober. I shared something in the meeting. I don't recall what I shared exactly. After the meeting, a man came over to me and said, have you ever heard of sex and love ethics anonymous? And I said, no. said, I think you could benefit from that. And I'm thinking, who is this guy and what is he talking, you know, like what, me, what? And he said, are you going to be at this meeting next week? Cause I would give you their big book. So I said, yeah. So lo and behold, the next week he brought in the sex and love addicts anonymous big book. I started reading it and I started to identify with this kind of serial monogamy. Always needing a boyfriend, never feeling enough. obsessing about men, pining over this one and wanting that one. a lot of fantasy living a lot in fantasy. and this is, you know, at 10 years sober, I don't think I ever went to a meeting cause the stigma with that, I thought I am not walking into a sex and love addicts, anonymous me. I'm just not going to do that. I just can't do that. You know, that seemed like Beyond, you know, beyond the beyonds. And I just thought this was my conditioning. Like you had to be married in order to be happy, or you had to be in a relationship in order to be happy. you have to have children, this, that, and the other thing. So I was very confused. Let me just say, I was very confused and certainly growing up in an atmosphere where the marriage that I witnessed, even though I'm sure my parents not set out to traumatize their kids. sure that was not in their minds at all. domestic violence, watching parents, my parents, you know, hurt each other physically and emotionally, really was, was hard, was very difficult. And I think it imprinted on me this thing of, It's not safe. It's not safe, you know, and so I would date people and then we'd start to get very close and I'd break up, you know, we get to a certain place and then I'd break up with them. When I was a flight attendant, so I was always traveling and I always had a reason why I couldn't stick around and, and lo and behold, you know, I continued to stay sober. I continued to, be in therapy. I had women in my life who said to me, I think you're going to want to have kids one day. And I think you are going to want to get married. And I was. Probably 38 or 39. I started to have this call to motherhood, call to marriage. And I did a lot of work. I've done an enormous amount of work throughout the years, Nadine. I've taken workshops and therapy and saw psychics and healers and shamans. And, prayers and I had a lot of emotional work to do with the amount of trauma. It's called developmental trauma. What I, what I grew up with, from one to 10, and I had a lot of emotional work to do cause there was, a lot of wounding that happened as a kid. And, so, You know, I, I did get married. I do have a 19 year old son. I was so, so grateful. So grateful. it's a, it's a blessing to be a mother and it's, it's hard work. and, and I, and I did divorce. I was with my, my ex husband Jorge for about 14 years, married for 11. And it was around this time. So we're, we divorced and my son and I moved. We were living in Puerto Rico and, connected with an old boyfriend who was, not available, which was my, this is my kind of my pattern. Like the men are very attractive and they're married usually. and I started this torrid love affair. I was just recently divorced. He was still married. I realized that this guy was my drug. Every time I was with him, I felt high. I could just feel it. I could just feel my whole energy. He was married, you know, and he has a son who has Down syndrome and, you know, his family needed him. And I just knew I needed help. And I remembered Love Addicts Anonymous, and I reached out, I think they're talking about S L a, a, the acronym. And I went to a meeting and that was in August of 2014. I stopped seeing this man I began the journey of, really looking at. Myself in a very different way and looking at the men that I chose and really dealing with some very, deep issues childhood. yeah, it's intent. I would just

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. the developmental work that you've done in therapy. I want to look into that myself because those prime, those Early years really shape how you see. Relationships, how you see yourself, what you think that you deserve. I'm assuming in love and sex addicts anonymous. You're doing step work as well, like you're working through that and I'm assuming a big part of it is doing work on yourself and validating that you are enough and worthy of love. And if it's not romantic love, I'm assuming it's self love.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. it is. any withdrawal, my experience, certainly my first year of being sober and AA, I cried a lot. And I think also when I went with debtors anonymous, there's this transition of this behavior and how I acted. And then. I'm not doing those same things. So there's this kind of these things, the feelings that I was suppressing with the addiction, right? Which is really, it's all just a symptom of a much deeper issue. Yet I needed the structure of AA, of Al Anon, of ACA, of DA. I needed to stop the addiction. And with sex and love addicts, I was detoxing from this person, I thought this has got to be worse than detoxing from heroin. I was in my room in a fetal position crying and crying and crying, but I think it was the crying that I never did as a kid. It was the crying that I never, the grief, the fear that I was never willing to go to. Do you know what I mean? Like putting down that relationship and that man Just forced me because, you know, they say no contact, no contact. It's like, don't drink, pick up the

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Yeah.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

him, do not call him. And each day I didn't call him the grief the sadness just slowly came to the surface until, you know, I, I don't know how long I cried, but I, it was all repressed. It was all repressed. inside of me. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful to him. he's with his wife. I don't see him. He had reached out to me and I do not have contact with him. I just can't. This is a drug for me and I can't be around him. There's no good reason for me to be with him. I feel like each of these programs brought me to a place where I could love myself enough To allow myself to feel the grief and to feel the sadness and to feel the anger and get it out of my system to stop punishing myself. It wasn't my fault what happened, what happened to me. And it's not my parents fault either.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Bye

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

they had their own trauma when my parents would tell me about their childhood. I mean, All of us have our trauma. It's nobody's fault. but it couldn't have gotten to that deeper place without the structures of the programs that I'm in,

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

That's very powerfully and beautifully said. Thank you so much. I want to wind down and just ask if you have any advice that you could offer to someone who might be hesitant or maybe uncertain about seeking help from any of these programs mentioned.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

I would say if there's something inside of you that there's this kind of like, Oh, I've thought of going to AA. I've thought of, you know, I, I'm having stuff with my money or I'm having stuff with my boyfriend or my girlfriend, or, you know, I would ask that you follow that and be willing to explore it a little bit deeper and be willing to go to a meeting, or a couple of meetings to see if indeed whatever that thing inside of you, which is, I think for me personally, that part of you that wants to live, that part of you that loves yourself, that part of you that is calling for a life unencumbered by fear or worry or, you know, addiction to follow that part and just be willing to explore without any kind of like agenda or just, you know, I'm just going to check it out. No pressure, no pressure. If it doesn't resonate with you, That's okay. But just follow that. I think inside of us, we have that part of us that loves us so much and wants to live that whatever that is. It's the inner child or that life force. I feel like I have that. And I think you have that so strongly too. And thank you so much for the work that you're doing in the world. You know, the work and your beautiful light that you bring to the world, you know, in the way that you bring it. it's the call for love, for really a deep, deep love, of ourselves and, of our, of our journeys. And call me, if anybody wants to call me, they can call me. Yes.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

I love that so much, Kathy. And I just want to like throw that right back at you. Like you have such a lightness, your honesty, like the fact that you can be so forthcoming, I think, with the anonymity programs. Obviously, people share in the rooms, and I just so appreciate you for sharing on a wider platform so that other people can connect to parts of your story or just the emotions that I feel like I have so many emotions have come up for me and hearing you share, which is how I know. I'm in the right place at the right time, receiving the right message from you. And so I just want to thank you so much for coming on and sharing that with us. And I think going back to what you shared about that, like, inner, it sounds like inner voice or inner child or just something within us that exist that life force. As you mentioned, it reminds me of. The saying, like, first God, or you could substitute God with whatever, right? First, at first, God whispers, and then he screams. And I think, for me, that's so powerful because I just feel like there's all these little pebble, like, little, like, drops. It's like, okay, like, you heard that voice very loudly. Back in the eighties when, you know, it was New Year's Eve and you just heard this rumbling, like voice, it's just like, you need help. And it wasn't your ex boyfriend. I think that's the case. Like, we just know these things before we know them, if that makes sense. Like we know, There's something wrong. Maybe we don't know exactly what is wrong, but we know something is wrong. And if you are open enough with yourself or you have an open mind to where you can just go right with zero expectation, as you mentioned, but treat it like a social experiment, just go for the sake of knowing or learning or listening. I think you can save lives so you can save your own life. That's what you did. And that's what I, I did and what I'm constantly doing. I think it's the work that we have to do on a daily basis. And whether you're in Alcoholics Anonymous where you're not drinking or, you know, you're not reaching out or contacting someone that is like a drug for you. it's just the idea of every day you take the necessary steps to work for yourself and just focus on the here and now and things will come together as they unfold.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

beautiful.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

a gradual process.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Absolutely.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

thank you so much for sharing all of. All of your wisdom, all of your gems. I'm just so grateful. I want to open the platform as we wind down. Is there anything, I know that you've shared tons of resources. if people did want to get in contact with you, is there a good way to do so? Absolutely.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

You know, they could reach out to you and then you would then let me know? Because

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Absolutely.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

And I'm, I, I promise, I promise anyone who reaches out to you and you then let me know. I will call them. I will, email them, text them, but I will reach back.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

I appreciate that. And I just so appreciate you coming on and sharing. Thank you so much, Kathy.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

very welcome, Nadine. What a pleasure. I'm excited for what you're doing and that we're alive.

the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2024_154121:

Me too. Thank you for coming.

kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_154122:

Nadine.

the-sober-butterfly_32_06-27-2024_185321:

Thank you for tuning into this week's episode of the Sober Butterfly Podcast, where we featured Kathy's story in her journey through Alcoholics Anonymous Al-Anon adult Children of Alcoholics, debtors Anonymous and Sex and Love, addicts Anonymous. If you or someone you know is struggling with substance use or addiction, know that you are not alone, and that help is available, provided in the show notes or some resources for support. Kathy is so sincere. And she wrote me after this week's episode to say. If anyone needs support, please reach out. You can email hello at the sober butterfly. com and I can put you in direct contact with Kathy. Your feedback is incredibly important to us. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a five star rating to help support the show. Your ratings and reviews help others find our podcast and join the community. Thank you for listening and until next time, take care and stay strong.