The Sober Butterfly Podcast

Sober Sexpert Tawny Lara, Author of Dry Humping, on Sober Sex, Dating, Self-Love, and Life Beyond Liquid Courage

• Nadine Mulvina

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In this episode of The Sober Butterfly podcast, Nadine welcomes Tawny Lara, known as the 'sober sexpert,' to discuss her book, 'Dry Humping: A Guide to Booze Free Dating, Sex and Relationships.' Tawny details her journe from being a party girl bartender in Texas to moving to New York City and reevaluating her relationship with alcohol in 2015 New York City. This convo covers Tawny's approach to dating, sex, and relationships without alcohol, highlighting the importance of self-love, self-discovery, and intrinsic courage.

We also get into:

  • practical tips for dating yourself
  • navigating relationships with different drinking habits
  • the importance of effective communication
  • building intrinsic courage
  • sober sex
  •  aligning one's actions with personal growth and comfort
  • Additional topics include dealing with mental health struggles, the significance of community support, and creating harm reduction strategies. 

Connect with Nadine and TSB 🦋

  • Instagram: @the.soberbutterfly @soberbutterflypodcast
  •  YouTube:@thesoberbutterfly

Watch the full episode on YouTube! Available now :) 

Connect with Tawny 🌈

Instagram: @tawnymlara

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Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Hello, hello and welcome to The Sober Butterfly. Today we are joined with a very special guest. We have Tawny Lara here. Tawny is known for her incredible book, which I'm holding here. Dry Humping, A Guide to Booze Free Dating, Sex and Relationships. Tawny, I think I was first introduced to you when I got sober three and a half years ago. You came across my social media. That's how I got sober. A big part of it was social and your account really stood out to me. You are known in the sober world as the sober sexpert, which I think is genius. And so I would love to have you just kind of get into today, your expertise, sharing your findings around what it means to be a sober person, trying to navigate the very difficult subject. Know this sex. So that I say all that to say, welcome, Tawny, to the show. How are you? How are you today?

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I am so excited to be here and it's good to see you again. I know we've met a few times out and about in the New York sober scene and love the name of the podcast. I love that.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I think I saw you, didn't you do an episode about like ADHD and sobriety?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I was recently diagnosed. Yup.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Thank

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I'm not, but two people very close to me are. So I'm very, that, that subject means a lot to me. And I'm just, I'm glad that you cover those kinds of topics on your

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

you.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

The link between ADHD or like neurodivergency and alcohol abuse or use self medicating is very common. I didn't realize until I was diagnosed. So I appreciate you for saying that. You know, in doing my research for today's episode, I know that you mentioned before sobriety, you felt you were self medicating with alcohol. And so I would love just to hear a little bit about your story. Take us back to, I know you're from Texas. So yeah, do you mind shedding some light about what life looked like before your move to NYC? Absolutely

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

absolutely. Let's go all the way back. I grew up in Waco, Texas, and I was your very stereotypical bartending party girl. Think of, you know, a girl dancing on the bar going, whoo, to cash.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

but not in New York.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

exactly. But I even did work at a country bar. So yeah, kind of.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I love that.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

but like, yeah, I just want to paint the picture of like, I was your stereotypical blackout drunk party girl. You know, if I was not serving drinks behind the bar, I was on the other side of the bar taking shots or dancing on the bar. My whole life. That's where I met friends. That's where I met sexual partners. That's where I met long term partners. That's where it was my whole world, you know, and I had a very non traditional college experience where I didn't graduate until I turned 28. And shortly after I turned 28, I moved to Miami. The woodlands, which is like Houston area

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Okay.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

had a year there where I just, I really had no idea what I was going to do with my life, but I knew I wanted to get out of Waco and figure out what my next chapter was and that year I lived with my aunt and saved up money. I traveled internationally for the 1st time. I was, you know, out of my caterpillar into my sober butterfly wings, if you

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I love that. fly, baby. Yes. I love that.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

ultimately I took, you know, this, a Euro trip. This is like a very stereotypical American, like I went to Europe and changed my life, but it was me.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah. I love

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

And then right after I came back from my trip to, to Europe, I, I bought a one way ticket to New York, something within that year, something within traveling, seeing the world. I was like, life is too short. I want to be a writer who lives in New York City, and I had hot pink hair at the time. I was going through my Saturn return. You know, it was, it was a,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

that. Mm. Yep.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

So, you know, I moved to New York City to pursue writing, and very quickly after I moved here, I Started to reevaluate my relationship with alcohol. I'm no longer around my bartending party girlfriends. I'm hanging out with people who can have 1 or 2 drinks instead of drinking until they blackout. I would order a round of shots for the table and then people would look at me like, what are you doing? This is not how, this is a Tuesday. What are we, like, I, it was really like the first time that people, they weren't judgmental to me, but it was, you know, it was the first time that I was around people who didn't drink like I drink, if that makes sense.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

That makes sense.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

And so that was hugely formative to me. So. This was 2015. You know, I moved to New York in June of 2015. I quit drinking November of 2015.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Wow.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I had this very, you know, non cinematic rock bottom where I was just in a pub talking to friends about how I don't have enough time to write. And something clicked when I left that pub. I was like, okay, you just spent four hours to write this.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

talking about how you don't have time to write. Maybe there's a connection here.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

really was the beginning of my alcohol free journey. Again, that was November 30th of 2015. This is before we had the term sober curious. This is before, you know, this is when O'Doul's was our only non health option. You know, I love hearing you say that you found me on social media because, like, that wasn't even a thing, like, I was one of the first to be, like, Instagram was still pretty new, and we're all kind of figuring out what it is, and I started posting about my sober journey on Instagram, and I, too, got sober through these other incredible humans that I met, and, I not go through the AA 12 step route And I met incredible people and fast forward to, you know, now I'm nine years in recovery.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I would like to sort of hone in because 2015. Yeah, that was pre sober curious movement as far as I'm aware. Right? So you're one of the founders. I'm going to call you one of the founders. OGs and that's really impressive. I'm curious to learn from you, Tawny. You know, when you were Getting sober once you realize, okay, maybe I'm not realizing my potential here, you know I'm complaining that I don't have time to write and here I am ironically at a bar talking about how I don't have time To write so I'm want to know from you were you treating sobriety as a social experiment or was it more like I? Recognize that I have something deep within me that is problematic in terms of my relationship with alcohol You

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

It started out as number one,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Okay.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

experiment. And then I quickly realized, shit, there's, there's some stuff under there. You

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Got you.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I, I was about to turn 30 and I was like, what if I just don't drink for my whole 30th year?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Wow.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

it was, I was like, know, this is, people weren't even doing dry January.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

You know, I was like, I don't know where I got the idea of a dry year. It just came to me. I was like, you know, like I said, return of Saturn turning 30, new to New York. I was like, let's, let's shake things up. Let's give up booze for a year and see what happens.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mhm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

back, I would 100 percent say I was sober curious. You know, I just,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mhm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

didn't have that language yet.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Got you. It's funny not to parallel our lives, but I can't help it as you share because I moved to New York around the same time I moved in 2014. And when I tell you it's so fascinating to me that you got sober when you moved to New York because I found everything under the sun. When I moved to New York, like my drinking escalated. It was an ecosystem. Definitely catered for someone like me who was still very much in the. at the height or the pinnacle of their drinking and their party gore years. But I think it's a nice reminder that it's where you are. Like, it's not necessarily where you are, like, location. It's more so like where you are, where you want to be. Like, internally, it sounds like you had done the work. You would have that summer in Europe or not. So you didn't say summer, but you had your trip. You had these moments and you were just like, or ready for a change, and it's interesting as well because I got sober at 30 and I have so many conversations with people. There's something magical about 3 0 or approaching 3 0. It's like, maybe you're just done. Like, you're like, stick a fork in me. I've been there, done that. Insanity. It's like insanity is quite literally doing the same thing and expecting different results. And at a certain point, it's like, okay, fool me once, shame on, you know, you. But I, I'm, I'm talking to myself quite literally in the mirror and I've done the same thing over and over again. I'm tired. I'm tired. Somebody help

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

you're 100 percent correct and you are not the first person to be like, how the hell did you get sober in New York city? I couldn't do, you know, like, but like growing up in a smaller town, there was nothing else to do but

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I see.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

and have sex. So the, I did those things

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

moved to New York and there's concerts and theater and museums and. I mean, there's just so much to do here

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

just the I was just like, why am I going to spend my time in a bar? Like, I want to explore New York City, know,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I remember.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I also understand how know, I wonder what it would have been like if I moved here when I was like 25

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

who knows? Who really knows? But you're, you're right. There is something about, you know, 30 and then like, I'm turning 40 this year. So I'm like, okay, what, like, what's, what's my next thing? I don't know. But yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Well, you've accomplished so much in your years of sobriety, and I'm going to get into all of that. I would love to hear from you because I would love to focus this conversation around something that I think is quite uncomfortable, uncomfortable for people. I'm uncomfortable even saying the word sometimes. No, I, I, I'm a sexual person. I love sex. I actually have found it. and getting sober, that my sex life is tenfold. It is so much better than when I was drinking. And I didn't realize how much I was using alcohol to lower my inhibitions in order to have sex, which I think is a natural process. And I was uncomfortable with sex. And I didn't realize that at the time, I've always considered myself to be pretty like, you know, open minded and experimental, but I was leaning a lot on alcohol. And I feel like a lot of people do that, like if I'm being honest with you, Tawny, and if anyone's listening at home and has the same experience, I would love to hear because I had never had sex with someone for the first time. Without alcohol, like I didn't realize that until I got sober. So I would love to just hear from you Like what shift did you experience if any when you went from? Drinking because you mentioned, you know before small town life bartending Drinking and sex kind of synonymous or they coexist they go hand in hand. So what was that shift like for you when you? Decided to get sober and how did that impact your sex life?

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Well, I was exactly like you just said, like, how you felt when I first quit drinking again in 2015, The thought of dating, let alone hooking up, let alone communicating, let alone setting boundaries, like all of these things that you need to do to have a relationship. I had no idea how to do them at all, let alone do them sober, you know? And I, right there with you, I'd never had sober sex, you know? I was heavily reliant on liquid courage and that is the, the thesis of my book is learning how to replace liquid courage with intrinsic courage and that the reason that I hone in on that language, liquid courage, instead of like sobriety or drunk or, or anything like that is because I think that everyone, whether they're sober, whether they're sober, curious, or mindful drinker, whatever, or Everyone can relate to the concept of liquid courage.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Absolutely.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

you don't need to get sober to realize that alcohol might be. Relying on alcohol for confidence, right? My personal experience, I'm a woman in recovery. I am an addict in recovery. You know, I had undiagnosed mental health issues and I self medicated them with drugs and alcohol. Now, nine years in recovery, I have found that tools, but I still take it one day at a time, right?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Right.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

you know, almost a decade in recovery and we still say one day at a time.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

But with my book and with my research, I wanted to open this conversation up even more to people who are sober curious, people who maybe have no plans on giving up alcohol at all, but they're interested maybe in, in dry dating or having a more mindful sexual experience.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

and I found that using that language has been really a bridge and it's bringing a lot of people to this conversation as opposed to when I originally started writing this book, it was for people in recovery, like you and me,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

so like, I'm a big fan of inclusivity and creating room for everyone to come sit at the table so we can all learn together.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

That's beautiful and very important because I think sometimes people really get into the weeds when it comes to language and it can be divisive for some and it's like, no, this conversation is inclusive of everyone. And to your point, the liquid courage piece, I refer to it as well as like a social lubricant. It eases us up and we're like, Oh, and I love this idea of what you mentioned. And like, Intrinsic not motivation. Intrinsic

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Courage.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

courage. Thank you. Versus like using a social

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

liquid courage. And I think that's really important to hone in on because so many people we know this default to alcohol to you. have sexual experiences. The book is very much grounded in research, but you also shared some personal anecdotes that I found really helpful. I think one piece that so many people can relate to is not feeling comfortable in their vessel, not feeling comfortable in their body and therefore using alcohol as liquid courage to work up the courage to have sex or to have relationships or feel more confident, sexy, fill in the blank. Right. So I just wanted to know from you, like, In terms of the research, tell us more about why people are automatically turning to alcohol as liquid courage to work themselves into the bedroom, basically. And then how can we reframe that and start really tapping into, as you mentioned, that intrinsic courage?

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah, I mean, it's the first chapter of my book is called dating yourself. And the second chapter is body image beyond booze. And I started the book with those chapters for a reason. You have to figure out who you are without alcohol. You have to love who you are without alcohol. Or at least like who you are, I would say before you consider having sober sex or before you go on sober dates, you have to figure out who you are first. And I'm not the first self help author to say that, you know, like every episode of. Rupaul's Drag Race ends with if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love somebody else? Right?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Amen. Yep.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

so I come, come to this conversation with if you can't love yourself without booze, how are you going to love anyone else without booze? Right? And so for me, I learned that a lot of my insecurity came from, I just didn't feel very smart. So I took a lot of classes. You know, in early sobriety, when I say dating yourself, I'm not just talking about like bubble baths and face masks.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Gotcha.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

about like getting to know you. Like I, Studied Spanish. I took a lot of writing courses. I volunteered, you know, I did these things that I always said I was going to do one day and then I learned more about myself and then learning more about myself, learning more about the world, connecting with other people that are not, You know, like I said, I used to meet people in bars, so

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Great.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

meeting people in classes and we have a shared interest. We've now bonded because we're both learning Spanish. That is a stronger bond than connecting over taking some shots. Right? So there's that, you know, there's the, you know, if you're relying on liquid courage because you don't feel smart. Take some classes, volunteer, meet new people. And then on the other end you know, there was the brains level, but on the, on a visceral level,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

so insecure in my skin.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

had body dysmorphia. I still have body dysmorphia. It's something I struggle with every day. So really

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Same.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

really getting in touch with my body. There's some masturbation exercises. I think masturbation can really be treated as a, as a form of self exploration. Like, yes, it's, it's an excellent way to like, feel good, but you know, in the book, there's exercises on ways to. Connect to your body through masturbation and for me that just helped me feel more confident in my skin

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

love my body See my body for who I am and you know If I felt insecure about something and then I would talk to my therapist about it I would talk to my friends. I would journal I would meditate, you know again like I had these undiagnosed mental health issues for so long, and then you get a anxiety diagnosis, then you get a body dysmorphia diagnosis, and for me, I found great freedom in those diagnoses, because then I could actually do something about them,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

You know, your mental health is going to drive the bus either way, so you

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

as

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

like, you might as well know what's going on. If you're not treating your mental health with medication or therapy, you're probably self medicating it with something else. So, you know, if

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

and you're thinking, like, this doesn't apply to you, I'm so sorry, but we all have a mental health diagnosis, and I encourage you to figure out what yours is. And I don't, you don't need to be fully sober for that, of course, but I I did, I had to get sober to, to address that, but you know, I think it's just really important to connect to your body, find ways to connect to your body, and find ways to connect to your mind, and then when you feel comfortable with, with that, then I think it's a good time to integrate sober sex and dating. Yes,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

really liked or I would accept, you know, another partner's sexual pleasure as my own and think that that was good enough. Whereas it's like, no, I need to discover myself and know what makes me tick, what makes me hum quite literally. And if I don't know that it's like hard for me to communicate that. said information to a partner in the future, right? So it's like that part, I think, is so important. Like, there is still a stigma, I think, when it comes to self masturbation, which I have no idea. It's like, I've been masturbating, Tawny, since I was probably like five.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

yes,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

know that's what I was doing, but like, it feels good,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

have like, let's talk about it. Let's celebrate it. Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

it. It's like, yes, it feels good. But like the stigma and the shame, and it's similar to sobriety, right? Or Any addiction or recovery. It's like, Oh, no, this thing is a dirty secret and I must hide it from the world. And it's ridiculous. It's like, no, I want to talk about it. And I think, yeah, the connection to body piece is so important. It reminds me too, because I know that there were less. less resources or alternate paths in terms of recovery when you were getting sober in 2015. Like, I think AA still is sort of like what people think of as like the model on the hill, so to speak. So in AA or traditional recovery spaces, they always see recommend not to date in a year, the first year of sobriety. Did you follow that principle, or was it sort of like you're just intuitively, you were like, no, I'm going to date myself. As mentioned, I'm going to take these classes. I'm going to really focus on Tawny. I'm going to work on, you know, connecting with getting maybe like therapy, which is what I did. Was that something that you thought about or? Recommend to folks at home like date yourself doesn't need to be for a disclosed amount of time Or will, you know when you're ready, I guess is my question.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

So I, I will say that I did, it was all an accident. but for my book, I took what worked, you

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Gotcha.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I was like, I'm not really. ready to date yet. I'm gonna kind of do my own thing. I didn't, you know, call it dating myself, but I knew that the thought of dating scared the hell out of me.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Right?

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

thought of sex scared the hell out of me. So I just did things that didn't scare the hell out of me, which meant, you know, again, I was a new New Yorker. I had a whole city to explore. I had new friends I was making. I had. I had a lot going on, and I was writing. I was writing more than ever. So,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

really getting to know myself. You know, I guess my, my quote problem with the wait one year rule is that it's, Some people need five years before they, you know,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

like if you've been in therapy for, for five years and you actually have done a lot of that work and then giving up alcohol was actually the last step, you might actually be pretty far ahead in this

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

right.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

So, you know, it's, I think a really easy litmus test is like. how, like, how do you feel in your body about having sex right now?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Okay.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

how do

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

in your body about going on a date? And I will say there's a difference between some anxiety, having first date jitters, and there's a difference between having this visceral, like, Oh my God, no, I can't,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

that like, in my book, I talk about the importance of knowing our comfort zones.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

right

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

lot of people. Talk shit about comfort zones. I'm a big fan of my comfort zone and I think everyone should spend more time in theirs because growth really can happen when you feel safe and comfortable. And if you have been relying on alcohol to get out of your comfort zone, were you even really getting out of your comfort zone? You know, like you really have to readdress. of these things, back to, back to basics, like you said, like, what is even pleasurable for me? What do I even like? And then on the other end of that, what do I not like? What did I

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Thank you.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

when I was drunk? What was performative? what was I doing that was to please other people that actually gets, does not do anything for me? So I think finding out both are super important.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I was pretty newly sober maybe a month under my belt. And I had sex with a friend who had been pursuing me for some time. And it was the worst. It was the worst. sexual experience of my life, Tawny, like the worst and, but here's the problem, right? I wouldn't even call it a problem. I think two things, right? One part is there's no barrier. As mentioned, I've never had sober sex for the first time. I think if I actually were drunk in that situation, I may have, Thought it was pleasurable, but because I didn't have this substance in me, I was very much present in my body and hated every moment of it. But here's the thing. It's so beautiful to see the growth because at that time I didn't say anything. I just, I just tolerated it. I was like, okay, I'm just going to lie here and wait for this to be over. Whereas now I've learned, you know, through my sobriety, through these, like, Not just from getting sober, that's part one, but like developing the skills I need to actually communicate and advocate and have boundaries and talk about, you know, what I need and what I don't like and so on and so forth. I've learned, you know, to speak up for myself, whereas then I was still very much fresh in my, my insecurities in my body. I felt disconnected

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Silence.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

taste in my mouth that I became celibate for over a year after that. And I did the things that you mentioned though, I started dating myself and it was a beautiful process because it involved me really Developing hobbies, if I'm being honest with you, because I do hobbies outside of drinking or not real hobbies like that didn't involve drinking. So it was a, it was a discovery period and it sounds like that's what you're recommending and that's what your book does so well. So 1 other thing, just a caveat here. What if you're in a relationship? What if you're married? What if you have a long term partner? Like, can you still date yourself? And what does that process look like? And does slash can that impact your significant other?

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Girl, yes. If you are in a relationship, I would say that you, you need to date yourself more than if you're single. I would say I, I think it's something that we all need to just do regularly. You know, I think, I think men and women, all genders, everyone should just, If you're in a relationship, do not make that relationship your whole

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Everything. Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I've been there. I've done that. It never ends well. And I would say, you know, dating yourself you know, two things here, dating yourself when you're in a relationship, it could be something as simple as like making sure that you. You know, have phone calls with your friends once a week,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

or going to get lunch with your girlfriends once a month, or just, you know, it, it could look like whatever you want. I would also say if you are, if you and your partner are giving up alcohol together, or if one of you is giving up alcohol, it could be fun for you guys to add a new hobby together. You

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

you're, maybe you take a Spanish class together. You know, maybe you sign up, maybe you guys go do a ballroom dancing workshop. But I think, you know, when you are re evaluating your relationship with alcohol, it is like you just said, it's so important to find hobbies. It is so important to fill that time that you used to fill with booze and with drinking buddies. And you know, there is a chapter of my book where I, where I talk about, well, A, there's breakups.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

breakups, because I was like, I can't write a book about sober sex and, and dating without having a chapter that acknowledges that heartache, sober heartache is fucking awful. It's so hard.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

And I think, sorry, Tawny, I think that's why AA also recommends not dating that first year because that can send people spiraling and relapsing. Yeah, break up his heart.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

it's so hard and it's like, again, if you need a year, take a year, take as, like, I love that you took a year for yourself and figured some stuff out, you know, and like, you'll, you'll take more time if you need it and you can take that time, I will say, if you are in a relationship and you want to take a break from sex. You can absolutely do that, you know, it's we all grow on our own, like, you know, and there's a chapter in the book called it's, it's like when you're like when your partner drinks or when you're in a relationship with someone who drinks, because this is, this is a really important part of it, like, sometimes you getting sober and your partner drinking still, could, that might be the end of your relationship.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah. Chapter five, by the way, how to date someone who drinks.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

it's, it's, it could be really devastating to find out that all you have in common was alcohol. And this could be after like marriage and kids and, you know, it could be really difficult. And then you can also a lovely experience where, you know, maybe you quit drinking and your partner, you doesn't get sober, but they're a big ally and they support you. And you guys figure out healthy boundaries of what alcohol in the home looks like. You know, it's, it's ultimately, it's about communication and figuring out what you need this experience.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I love that so much. I feel like a good segue to part two, part two of this conversation and part two of your book, Dry Humping, talks about sex. Let's talk about sex.

the-sober-butterfly_2_01-08-2025_164227:

And now a quick word from our partners.

the-sober-butterfly_25_12-24-2024_142305:

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Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

We've been talking about sex, but I want to kind of get more into it. So as mentioned, I'm having a sexual liberation as we speak, and I'm loving it and loving it. It's like, no, it's like a sex, bisexual renaissance. I'm like, Who was this girl? Where was she this whole time? She's been inside of me. But anyway, she's coming out and I love it. And so part two of your book is phenomenal. I love all parts of the book. And I, once again, want to resonate with folks at home, like you should date yourself and like define what that looks like for you. But in terms of. Introducing other people into the fold. How can we have better sexual experiences without relying on booze? Because I know in this part of the book, you talk about biochemistry, you talk about how booze interacts with our bodies. You talk about alcohol free aphrodisiacs, which I'm so for. But like How do we do that without relying on our good old faithful trusted boozy friend? I

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

well, I think, you know, when you are dating yourself, you're going to most likely realize why you used alcohol the way you used alcohol. So, for this context, you're, you've probably figured out why you used alcohol In the bedroom or to,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

feel more confident to let go, to be freakier. It just goes on and on.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I would say don't embark on sober sex until you've answered that question.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Beautiful.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

it take some time. Do not rush it. So then if you have figured out, you've have done that work and you're like, okay, I took two shots of whiskey before a date because I was really anxious and I just wanted to pregame. figuring out new ways to pregame, you know, like maybe that means you'd go to the gym first,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

maybe you meditate first or You have tea first, you know, there's a list of herbal aphrodisiacs in that chapter. But it's also like, if you're wanting to feel more confident, maybe you're like, you send a selfie to the group chat and be like, this is what I'm wearing tonight.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yep.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

you up. And you don't, then you

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yep.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

that liquid courage. Right. So these are some, you know, fun tips for like getting ready for the date, but when it comes to actually like engaging in sober sex for the first time, you know, I was, I think it was like five or six months before I did any sort of intimate activity with someone else. And I was very honest with this person. And I said, you know, we had been dating for like a month, so he knew I was sober. But I was just like, I just want you to know, this is my first time having sex. without alcohol. I'm really nervous

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

want to take this as slow as possible. And he was lovely. I am so grateful

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

That's great.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

was patient. And, you know, we, I, I would argue that the best sex is sex that you can like communicate and laugh through

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

it's, there's, there's so much going on. Like if you've got to be able to like, be comfortable enough with yourself to advocate. Hey, I'm new to this and I'm scared. That's really hard to say, right?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

And that's the piece I was missing. I didn't advocate for myself. Like I told him, but I didn't communicate fully how nervous I was about the experience going into it.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Did you know how nervous you were?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yes, I did know. I just didn't have the courage.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

the intrinsic courage to speak up for myself because default mode, you know, I'm a reformed, semi reformed people pleaser. And another thing about drinking and dating, I was always more preoccupied with whether the person liked me versus do I even like the person. I have discernment now to no longer do that. And I, I'm like, only focused on like, whether I like the person. But yeah, it's, it was interesting. I was still in that mindset where it's like, Oh, must get this man attracted to me and like, have to make him want to have sex with me. Like, it was just like, that's my default baseline. And it was. Awful. And the thing is, he was sober too. So I was just like, is this how sober people have sex? Like, ew! I don't, like, I don't want to be signed up for this. So I just didn't have sex for a year. Anyway.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Well, I, I'm glad that you took a year long break from sex instead of saying, okay, I'm going back to drinking,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yes, but like, that could have been triggering enough, truly.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

that happens, that

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah. Mmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

another question to ask yourself is like, if you think drunk sex is better, why? And sit with that, about that, you know, answer that question with your therapist, bring it up when you're hanging out with your girlfriends, like, okay. Ask the group chat, you know, like, seriously, that is such an important question to ask yourself, because that will tell you why you are relying on it. And most likely it's a confidence and security issue on some, some level, right? There's also the element of, you know, of queerness and coming out, you know,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

people that I interviewed for my book were, you know, they were reliant on alcohol to try to make themselves, like sex or

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

like sex with a different gender.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

then they got sober or they either got sober and then they came out or they came out and they realized, wow, I don't need, I don't need alcohol. Actually. I

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Right.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

was with the wrong gender,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

really letting, when I, when I say dating yourself, this is the stuff I'm talking about. I'm talking about. really figuring out who you are and the role alcohol plays in your life, especially when other people come into the mix.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I think that's profound. So ask yourself, what was that question again, Tawny? Like asking yourself, why do you think sober, why do you think having sex without alcohol is better?

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah. Ask yourself like, why, why do I think drunk sex is better?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I, Why do I need, why do I have two glasses of wine before every date? You know, whatever you do, whatever you get very honest with yourself

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

journal about that, ask, you know, have a conversation with yourself in the mirror, sounds crazy, but I do it like things out and that's when you're going to notice some significant changes in yourself. in the relationships that you have with other people. And there's more people are struggling with people pleasing and bedroom performance than we realize.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Right.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

you know, in my book, I talk about how I stopped faking orgasms when I quit drinking.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

was like literally what,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

the fake scream. It

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

gyrating the hips. Like I knew I should have won an Academy award. I was so good. Okay. And then what the first time I had sober sex, I realized, oh, this is when I start to fake and I don't want to do that with this guy. I like, I like this guy. He respects me. It felt like lying because it is,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

is like,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

it is lying. So it's, you know, and that, that's what I mean, where it's like, when it, when I say insecurity, it's not just, I don't feel cute. It's like I feel so insecure that I think my only responsibility in this sexual act is to please that guy.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I'm

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

about my pleasure at all. I am only here to please this person.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

And that could be a very fun, sexy game, if you know you're playing it.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

That's your thing.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

But,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

but if, if

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

don't know,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

you don't know, then it's, it's not a sexy game.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

it's not sexy. Yeah, that's so real. I think, yeah, sober sex is beautiful for me as well. Especially I think I've realized is because I'm having more authentic connections, not just with. platonic relationships, but quite literally, like I'm not having sex because I think I'm supposed to have sex now. Like this is just the natural progression of things. And as mentioned, I just want this person to like me. I'm having sex because I want to, I'm choosing to have sex. And I think another thing is, I mean, we can talk about gender. race, like other things play roles, like in terms of how you were raised, religious affiliations, things like that, because I think so much of it too was shame, connected to shame for me. Like as a woman, I'm not supposed to have X body count. And if I get drunk, I'm able to sort of let that go and be this like, free or person. And the thing though, Tawny is I would have shame the next day. So I'd wake up like, Oh fuck, like I had sex with this person and I don't know if I would have. So I, to frame it now with when it comes to sober sex by, I think it's so much more profound and deeper is because I'm choosing to actively have sex with this person. Like every fiber of my being is like, I consent, I am here. I want to be here. I choose you. And that is not something that I did fully before. And I'm not saying that, you know,, these bad things happened to me. Like I was there. I was there. I chose to be there, but like, was I fully there? No. And that's the thing about alcohol. It really does blur the lines. And I don't like that haziness. And I really feel just so much more connected to my sexual partners now, because I'm showing up as my authentic self. And I. Communicate better to your point. Like I'm able to tell them, like, I like this. I don't like that. And thanks. Thanks for taking me into account.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Bye. That was

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

right. I'm not having my fake orgasm orgasms. If I don't come, I don't come. Sorry. Try harder next time. I don't know. No, not even try harder next time. Like literally, like I will show you how next time,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

And

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

but

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

like, it's also, like, let's remove the orgasm pressure,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

yes, there is pressure. You

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

an orgasm is such a small part of a sexual experience or

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

know what? Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

you know, we grew up reading like Cosmo and 17, like talking at like, where the orgasm was like the most important thing. And it's like, it's just part of it. And so

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

And it's unrealistic to expect that you're going to orgasm every single time. Mm

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

and especially women that have sex with men. It's not happening every time, unless you know your body, you feel comfortable enough to speak up, like, you know, so just, I just want to say. Don't, don't center the orgasm.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

That's fair. That is fair. And it takes the pressure off to your point, right? So I'm more likely to probably orgasm if I'm not obsessing over. Okay. When am I going to orgasm?

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

and it's not connected to performance. Yeah, it's very performative when you're like, Oh, this is how, you know, I enjoyed

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

you. The grand finale. So, we've covered what it means to date yourself, getting to know yourself, what matters to you, what doesn't matter as much, figuring out how to navigate sexual experiences without alcohol. Part three of your book talks a lot about I love the framing of this because we know drunk in love, right? Like we think of Beyonce drunk in love or like, love in a hopeless place, Rihanna, but your part three is undrunk love. And I've had a lot more drunk love experiences than I have. undrunk love experiences, Tawny. So can you walk us through what this part of the book entails and how we can redefine current relationships that we have that may be too focused around booze.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

So I structured the book, you know, like you said, the first thirds about dating, the middle is about sex. And then the last part is just about relationships. It's about communication. It's about setting boundaries. It's about identifying your boundaries and then communicating those boundaries. So I, I would say, you know, I feel like every answer I've given you has gone back to dating yourself because when you're dating yourself and you're figuring out. Who you are. That's also when you're figuring out your boundaries. That's when you're figuring out your communication style,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm, mm-hmm Mm-hmm

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

so if you could figure these things out and then share that with somebody that is just amazing. That's going to be one of the deepest relationships you've ever had because you know, who you are, you know, what you're bringing to the relationship, you guys, you know, if, if you're lucky enough to find someone on a similar journey, someone who also is in therapy or does this kind of work, you can have a really beautiful relationship where you're communicating about the hard things you don't need alcohol to, you know, sit, you know, like, Oh God, we have to talk about our budget. You don't need alcohol to get through that conversation because you've already actually done a lot of work on your finances already, hopefully. And if you haven't, that's totally fine, but being able to just acknowledge, I have an unhealthy relationship with money. And that makes me lie or spend secretively or, you know, again, you're figuring these things out with yourself, which again, make it easier to have money conversations with a partner. So

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

the same kind of thing you know, creating boundaries in the home. If your partner drinks and you don't or vice versa, figuring out like. Are, are you a zero alcohol household or are you okay with them drinking, but you know, the alcohol just needs to be of sight, out of mind for you. Or if they go out drinking or do you feel comfortable kissing them when they get home? Do you want them to sleep on the

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

You can taste that liquor, you can taste that liquor on their tongue, I'll tell you that much, yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

what I mean where it's like, you're figuring out your, lot of these things you're not going to. know until

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

up front, yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

like I, when I was dating, I dated people who drank and didn't drink, but I quickly learned that I cannot kiss somebody if they smell like whiskey because it made me want whiskey.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

mm hmm,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

know, these things are going to come up and it's just important to like feel that gut check of like, okay, how does this make me feel?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

do I feel, does my sobriety feel jeopardized in any way? Does this person support my sobriety? Do they convince me to try and have just one?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

mm,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

So it's, you know, like I said, it all goes back to dating yourself and figuring out what exactly you want out of a relationship and who you are the communication. It's like, there's conversation templates in my book because,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

mm hmm, it's important about communication,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

conversations, even just like about the dishes. You know, there's literally a text conversation that I have learned with my husband how to talk to him about the dishes. That's in the book. And you're like, why is that in a sex book? Because it's a communication book. It's a book about communication and relationships. about relationships. And

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

talking about the budget and the dishes and all the other stuff, you know, like, then you're not really having a full relationship.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

So going back to dating yourself, you're getting honest with yourself, you're working on everything. you know, how to communicate those truths about yourself to other people. To your point, things come up as they come up, but like, you're working on communicating. It's a fine skill that needs to be, you know, taught for some people, like, and, or not even just taught, like, it's something that constantly needs to be worked on. And I think you mentioned your husband. So I know that your husband's also sober, which is amazing. And I want to talk about some projects that you guys have co created. Really quickly before we do so, I was curious to learn from you. So, backstage, we were talking like the first time we met. Actually, I was with my then ex current, my then boyfriend, current ex. But something he was sober as well. And something that was beautiful about that. Aside from someone that just, you know, isn't, isn't. Obsessed about drinking was this idea that 1 time he came to me and he said, I would love to develop a a relapse plan with you. And I was just wondering if you'd ever heard of this, or if you and your husband had any action or game plan in place. Should either one of you feel triggered or relapse or I don't even know why your husband is sober. So I'm not, I don't want to say relapse per se, but just have you guys had that talk as well, just in terms of communicating. All right. What are these things that we need to do for each other? If one person starts to slip or feels like they want to drink. I, I know he's your ex, but that is an emotionally intelligent man. It

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

sorry.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

was when you said that, like, I was like, Whoa. That is

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

that's

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

powerful. Yeah, I'm the problem. Tawny that was a great plan. So I was, yeah, I was just wondering.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I love that language, the, the relapse plan, because that's actually something that is talked about in some rehabs where you talk about like, okay, life is going to happen. You feel like you have a good plan. Now, but what about when this happens or this happens or this happens or shit hits the fan? What happens if you relapse? So there are actually some rehab programs where they prescribe a relapse while you're in Treatment so you can go through with The relapse with, with support, with peer support, with medical support, with psychiatric support. I think it's so smart because I come from a very realistic harm reduction approach. Like, again, I don't think everybody needs to be fully sober. I'm not anti alcohol at all. And. People make mistakes, people slip up. So anyway, I just love that language relapse plan. We don't have that, but we do have a very open line of communication where it's like, we know when, when things go really hard, we talk about it. And I'll just, I'll be

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

you know what? I would love to take a shot of whiskey right now. I would love to do that. And I can't. so being with someone who was also in recovery. is helpful because he gets it. Whereas if I were to share that with someone who doesn't know what we've been through, they might be like, Oh my God, what do I do? Like, is he about to relapse? But it's like, no, we, it's okay to admit today was a really hard day and I would love to just black out for a little bit, you know? I think just talking about it is huge and I'm curious, like, how did you respond to that question? Like, did you guys have a relapse plan? Did you guys have a conversation about it?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

we did have a conversation. So he said it to me right before I took a trip to Asia for a month.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

and so we, we talked about what it could look like, but we never actually sat down because he wanted to actually like map out like step one, two, he was a very like visual and a local person. And I was just like, Oh, sounds great. Let's put it on, let's get around to it. But yeah, that's why I brought it up with you because I'm like, in the future, if I were to, that was my last relationship. If I were to enter a relationship again, it would be something that I would. Also bring up no matter what I'm the sober partner in recovery. So I would need to feel supported by my partner, whether they're sober or not to know. What's going on. But to your point, I think the communication, right? You're able to feel comfortable enough to talk about it with the other person. I think that's helpful, but he was also, now it's coming back to me. He also bought up like signs. He was like, because you know, if I'm being avoidant or if I'm doing this, like I might not even clock what's going on, but I want you to be able to pick up on it. So he was very like very, very specific and detailed with his approach to it, which was cool. Yeah,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I mean, it's, I kinda want you to text him, but.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I can't. I would hurt him. No, I, I, full disclosure, he doesn't want to talk to me.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Okay, okay. So I will also say on this note this, this conversation reminds me of transfer addictions.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

even though, you know, honestly, I, am not tempted by alcohol at all anymore. I'm very grateful for that, but I will say that I still have, I developed like work addiction,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

addiction.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

my body dysmorphia takes over sometimes. So it's like these kinds of things, while no, they're not it's still my addiction manifesting in other self destructive ways.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

hmm. Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

these are all things that I learned by dating myself. Oh, this, you know, like, it's still, those things don't go away. The

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

doesn't go away. Your

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

issues don't go away. You, they're still there. You just

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

coping skills now. Which again, that's why I'm a big fan of harm reduction. If like me, you know, if I'm doom scrolling too much, it's better than getting fucked up.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yep.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

You know, or if I'm, if I'm overworking. It's better than being out at a bar.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yep.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

but it's also work addiction is real.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

addiction is real. So these are things that, you know, I talked to him about where I'm like, I deleted Instagram from my phone and I'm like, okay I'm not doom scrolling anymore. Now I'm just working all the time. like, so, you know, it's, it's that, that kind of thing I think is just as important to talk about

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm. Yeah. I can get into addiction transference.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Many, many, I've seen many different iterations over the course of my three years of sobriety. I'll say that. But to your point, harm reduction, I think for me, my drug of choice was alcohol. Anything is better. Not anything. But the things that I'm doing now that might be Considered problematic. I think a lot of it is connected to body image, overexercising, things like that. Like, I'm like, it's a health, it's still a healthier coping mechanism. And it ebbs and flows, right? Like, it's not always like, no, I'm spiraling out about this one thing. Like, you know, it comes and goes. But to your point, the signs sometimes. appear in different areas of our life. And I think recognizing that is healthy still, right?

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

It is. It's we're, we are deeply imperfect beings and being alive is really hard.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

that the, you know, if my one takeaway for listeners would be like, just give yourself grace and be

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Give yourself grace.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

be nice to yourself. This is so hard. Being alive is so hard, especially if you are struggling with addiction or mental health or body image, or, you know, you're queer and you can't come out. Like

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

it's even harder. So be kind to yourself and find community. That's. You know, that's my biggest piece of advice.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I love that. As we wind down, Tawny, I would love to just hear about other projects. you've accomplished so much. So obviously we've been talking extensively about your book, Dry Humping, but I also know that with your husband, which I've gotten to try, I love it. You have a brand and now an alcoholic brand called Parenthesis and there's different minds. Can you talk to us a little bit

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

that and the sobriety deck? I would love to hear all about it and just also what sparked the idea. I'm just like,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

is so brilliant. It's giving sober power couple, like I absolutely love it. So tell us more.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I love that. Yeah. So I'll, I'll give you the, elevator pitch for the drink. So, Nick was a sommelier who quit drinking.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Whoa.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

a lot about beverage. He knows a lot about, you know, beverage industry history and all that. And I was a you know, I w I was a bartender, but I was not a you know, expert, like, like he is, but I will say I missed having a stiff drink. As I've, I've mentioned whiskey probably 10 times on this podcast. So I missed having a strong drink, you know, and I just really wanted, like, I was very unimpressed with the non alcohol whiskey options. And so, Nick, you know, we put our brains together, his sommelier education, my desire for a stiff drink. We realized that what we could get, we could get that from fermentation. he

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Okay.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

into fermentation. He started fermenting. everything, making all different types of vinegar. So our drink is, it's a seaweed vinegar base and that

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

That's awesome. I

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

And then we use that vinegar to extract the boTawnycals. So it's a real, it's a bold spirit and it's called parentheses because it's a before and an after. And the before has got floral notes where the after is more smoky. So, yeah,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

love that.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I'm, I love it. It's my, or we're so proud of it. It's do it. It's been out for a year and you know, it's, it's doing the thing. We were just in men's health for best stiff and a drink. that's exciting.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

love that. It's amazing.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Thank

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Okay. I got to ask you, is there any aphrodisiac component to it? Or is that something that maybe a parentheses part three can entail? The

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

and, you know, with me being a writer or going with the literary theme. we're, we're playing around with like, well, what would, what would like a sexy, what's a sexy punctuation mark that we could do something with aphrodisiac properties? So I'll ask you, what is the sexiest punctuation mark that maybe we could do?

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

first thing that came to mind was the semicolon. I don't know why it's like the dot and then like the little curvature of it. Listen to me because parentheses are pretty sexy, but I'm like the semicolon. It's like Dot, it's like not a dot, dot, dot. It's like, oh, I'm not done yet. I'm going to continue. Like, so maybe that can be like the middle in between the parentheses, the semicolon. I don't know where I'm going with this, but

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

it's maybe like the semicolons kind of like edging.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

yes. Oh,

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

you think it's ending, but we're not there yet.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

we're not there yet. We're not done, baby. We're not done.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I love that. Thanks.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

I'll, I'm collecting data, so we'll see. So yeah, that's parentheses and then my podcast co host and I, we just came out with the sobriety deck. It is a, it's a self help card deck

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

on sobriety. So, you know, it's split up into five different categories and whatever you're going through that day, you know, maybe it's sobriety toolkit, maybe it's relationships. You pull a card, you know, kind of like tarot, you just pull,

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I love that.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

the advice that you need that day. And it was just so fun to work on it together again, working on the drink with Nick and

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

deck with my podcast, co host slash bestie. I'm all about community. I'm all about collaboration. So, you know, writing a book is a very lonely process. It's just you

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Mm hmm.

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

laptop and It's, it's, it's very different. Whereas the drink, you know, it's, it's us together. It's putting our brains together and then taking this thing out to the world and, and the deck, you know, Lisa and I were on zoom for like hours at a time, just like sharing a Google doc writing together. And it was just, it was really fun. So, yeah.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

I love that. And just final, final question for you. If you could offer Tawny any piece of advice from all of the perspective you have today, what would you give her in regards to relationships, love, sex, life, anything?

Tawny Lara The Sober Sexpert:

Oh, man, I know I've already said this, but like giving yourself grace. I didn't really understand what that meant. when I, when I was newly sober. And even still, I still feel like I'm having to make up for lost time. Because I'm like, I spent ten years getting blackout drunk. My writing career didn't even start until I was thirty. I have so much to catch up on. just remember that, everyone's path is different. And don't compare your path to other people's. because that's what I did. I compared my drinking to other people's. I compared my sobriety to other people's. I compare my writing to other people and what do you get from that? You

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara:

I would say stop comparing and just be really nice to yourself

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

And when you compare, you do yourself a disservice because there's only one you, right? It's like, what's the point of measuring your success or measuring your worth against others? Some random person who's probably, by the way, doing the same thing, right? They're comparing their work or their life to someone else's and it's never really what you think I know going back to social media, like I see the good, the bad, the ugly, because the good parts are, yes. Like I can draw inspiration sometimes from people. For me getting sober, I didn't know anyone sober in my real life. I'm like, let me look online. Look at these shiny, amazing people living their best lives without alcohol. That was important to me. But also I'm sure you can relate to this. You meet people in real life and you're like, Oh, you're a person like you're a real person. Like it's, it's, it's fine that you're a real person, but it's never what you may expect or assume. Um, and even if they do present a certain way, we don't know what's going on beneath the surface. So I just think that's so important. And when you were sharing about like giving yourself grace and especially in regards to mental health. Yeah. I look back and sometimes I cringe about all of the years I wasted doing Binge drinking, blacking out, putting myself in compromising situations. Um, but then even getting the diagnosis for ADHD, like once I understood that, I'm like, wow, makes sense. Or like masking or like thinking about the self medication that I was doing. I, you know, trauma. We haven't gotten into some of that stuff, but like, yeah, that all lives in there. And that. It was me protecting myself to the best of my ability at that time with the information I had. Now I know better. I'm doing better. So yeah, I love giving yourself grace. Thank you for that, Tawny.

Tawny Lara:

that's that's literally all we can do. I mean, it's life seems just be getting harder. So um, if we could be nice to each other and nice to ourselves and just listen, listen Don't talk all the time. Listen to what people are saying. Read books. Um,

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

hmm.

Tawny Lara:

and I would say think critically. Read dry. Definitely start with dry humping. Um, but I would say think what's, I would think, I think we need more critical thinking.

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara:

and be okay with not knowing the answer to things. You don't, another thing I did when I was insecure was like, like, lie, like, making shit up because I felt like I needed to know the answer. And it's, like, totally okay to just, if someone asks you, it's like, Actually, I, I don't know. Let me think on that. And if some,

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Thank you for saying that. That was me on dates. I'd be like, oh, um, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I have no idea what this man just said.

Tawny Lara:

don't

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara:

Like, just, just

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Don't pretend.

Tawny Lara:

These are all forms of lying. Um, and just, yeah. Just don't do it anymore.

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Critical thinking. We have a brain. Let's use it. Actively listening, we have ears, let's open them. And a voice. Speak your truth, right? Like, use your voice, have an original thought, have an original opinion. You don't have to say yes just because somebody asked you a question and you don't want to be the only person that has a different opinion. Um,

Tawny Lara:

opinion. Be the one

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

yeah, have a different opinion.

Tawny Lara:

advocate for it. Because the other people, half of them are just saying yes because they want to agree with everyone else. So use

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Exactly.

Tawny Lara:

Women,

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

hmm.

Tawny Lara:

your voice.

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Yes. And stop faking orgasms.

Tawny Lara:

stop. Stop faking. Stop faking everything. Just,

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Stop faking life. It's not, it's not, we're, we're laughing, we're smiling. It's not okay. Everything's burning, but you know what? I'm happy to be here and I'm happy to be sober. And in this sober life, like nothing is perfect, but yeah, everything is like, as it should be somehow. So I'm happy with that.

Tawny Lara:

day

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

And one day at a time, and I'm so honored to have you here. You've shared so many gems and. I'm going to link everything in the show notes. I'm going to link parentheses where they can buy it. I'm going to link dry humping. I bought mine on Amazon, but if there's another place we'll link it in the show notes and I'm going to recommend the sobriety deck, which I think is, can this be played with other people? Is this like a game or is it like, affirmation style? Like you pull one and it's for you or can you do this with other people as well?

Tawny Lara:

I've seen both. You know, if you want it to be a more personal thing, um, I would try it with yourself first.

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Okay.

Tawny Lara:

dating yourself.

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Just like the book. Yeah. Just like the book.

Tawny Lara:

then, and then if you want to bring other people into it, then you can.

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

It's good sex time. Yeah, let's do it. Let's bring everyone in. Yeah, no, I, I like that I, I mentioned it because I'm having a little Valentine's Day sober girl party. Um, and so I was like, oh, should I bring your sobriety deck there or should it be something I do by myself?

Tawny Lara:

people use it as, you know, there's each card has like writing prompts, thought prompts. So if you want to do it, like you guys could journal together or just answer the question in a group, everyone kind of say what, what comes up. Um, but just keep in mind it is about sobriety. So some personal stuff might come up and then

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara:

like sharing, that's totally fine. That's the, that's the only reason I would say it may not

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Okay.

Tawny Lara:

a group setting.

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

But you could journal, right? Like if everyone had like their own little, like, okay. Like notepad or like in their phone on their notes app.

Tawny Lara:

it's a, if it's a sober event already,

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Yeah.

Tawny Lara:

coming to, like, talk

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Connect.

Tawny Lara:

stuff anyway, so I think in that sense, absolutely, it should be, it should be good. And if you do, please, I would, let me know, send me a picture. I'd love, that would make me really

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

I will. I will. Seriously, because I'm like, we're looking for different like games and things like that. Not, I know it's not a game, but I'm like different activities and I feel like that would be a nice

Tawny Lara:

an

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

thing to do.

Tawny Lara:

for sure.

the-sober-butterfly_5_01-27-2025_174245:

Yeah. Okay, Tawny. Thank you so much. Linking everything in the show notes. You are just amazing. I'm so glad we got to connect and have this moment and I'm sure I'm going to see you around NYC doing your thing and thank you for coming on the Sober Butterfly today.

Tawny Lara:

having me.

Nadine Mulvina The Sober Butterfly:

Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of The Sober Butterfly with Tawny Lara. Happy Valentine's Day, butterflies. If you're listening to this in real time, I think the main thing that I took away from this conversation with Tawny today, which is actually Super relevant, is the. importance of self love and our relationship to self. I needed to hear everything that Tawny shared around self love, dating yourself, giving yourself grace. And yeah, sober sex is something that is a little tricky to navigate in the beginning if it's not something you're used to. But as we both shared, we never had sober sex before. Ever really before getting sober. So, you know, if you feel like you can connect to that and you're really afraid of what that might look like, make sure you get Tawny's book. Like it really is the quintessential guide to dating yourself and loving yourself. And she provides amazing tools and tips that you can actually follow and templates, as mentioned in this conversation. So you definitely want to check that out. I'm also going to be giving away some free copies. So make sure that you are signed up for my newsletter. I will link that in the show notes as well. And before I let you go, butterflies, the full episode of this conversation with Tawny is available on YouTube. I'm in my YouTube era this year, I promise. I have like flirted with YouTube in the past. Now I'm going to commit. Okay. I'm going steady. I'm going to try. I'm going to really try my best to update my YouTube channel. I love making video content, long form content, but it just takes a long ass time. So forgive me for my flakiness, but this actual episode is available now on YouTube. So you can watch and listen to The same conversation again, if you want, I love you guys so much. Make sure that you're following the show so you can stay up to date with new episodes. We still have more talk around self love, dating, relationships, so on, so forth. Yeah, please do me a favor too. If you have not left a five star review for this podcast, do me a solid and leave that five star review because I am a five star girly. I love you guys so much. I'll see you next week and remember, give yourself the love you seek. That is my mantra every day for the month of February. Love you guys. Bye.