The Sober Butterfly Podcast
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The Sober Butterfly Podcast
Stop People Pleasing: Insights from Salt River Therapist Alexandria Atkinson
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In this episode of The Sober Butterfly Podcast, host Nadine Mulvina partners with Salt River Therapy to explore how therapy can help break the cycle of people-pleasing in sobriety. Licensed therapist Alexandria Atkinson shares her own healing journey and explains how trauma, attachment wounds, and fear of rejection fuel people-pleasing behaviors.
Together, they unpack how to set boundaries, sit with discomfort, and show yourself the grace you offer others.
🧠 Sponsored by Salt River Therapy — Book a free consultation at saltrivertherapy.com.
📲 Follow @alexandria.therapy and @salt.river.therapy
🦋 Connect with Nadine and TSB @the.soberbutterfly @soberbutterflypodcast
🎧 Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube!
Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services refereed to in this episode.
Hello. Hello, butterflies. It's Nadine, host of the Sober Butterfly. Before we dive into today's episode, I wanna take a moment to talk about something that's been crucial on my sober journey therapy. I. That's why I'm so excited to partner with Salt River Therapy, a boutique practice based in Brooklyn that truly gets you. Their therapists offer compassionate, affirming support, and they don't just help you gain insight. They help you create real lasting change. Whether you're dealing with anxiety, grief, low self-esteem, or relationship struggles, salt River offers in-person sessions in Brooklyn and their virtual therapy across New York and New Jersey. They accept most Aetna plans and have sliding scale rates available. So if you're feeling overwhelmed or just know it's time to prioritize your health, I encourage you to book a free consultation@saltrivertherapy.com. Tell them the Sober Butterfly sent you. Now let's get into this incredible episode with one of their very own Alexandria Atkinson.
the-sober-butterfly_1_04-13-2025_120630I'm so excited to have you here today, Alex, how are you?
alex--she-her-_1_04-13-2025_120630Hi. Thanks for having me. I am so good. I'm really excited to be here.
the-sober-butterfly_1_04-13-2025_120630I'm really excited to have you here and specific to me and a bit of my story, I got sober thanks to therapy. So I love learning about mental health and that intersection between mental health, identity, sobriety. And when I got sober, I was sort of excavating a lot of patterns from the past. And one thing about me, Alex, you should know, I always tell people this. I am a semi emphasis on the semi semi. People pleaser. And so I thought it would be an amazing opportunity to kind of get your expertise as a therapist around what people pleasing really entails and how we can maybe break those patterns. So thank you for being here and thank you for all the work that you do. And if it's okay with you, I'd love to kind of get into it. But before we get into people pleasing, I would love to learn a little bit about you and what brought you into the field of therapy.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Well I guess like on the topic for today, like I think I'm a little bit of a recovering people pleaser myself. in terms of like therapy and psychology, I think I've always been interested in. That topic. Since I was very young, I've always been interested in people and how they function and how they see the world. I also grew up in a very religious household, which has a lot of emphasis on like being a helper or servitude. And I think that that kind of made me understand that I wanted to go into a helping profession. But in college I decided to study business 'cause I was kind of more focused on like, how can I be successful? And I failed accounting three times and realized it wasn't gonna work. And once I switched my major to psychology, everything really clicked. I really enjoyed it. I just love hearing people's stories and backgrounds and collaboratively helping them make sense of the world and like process and heal through their experiences. I. also had a really personal experience with therapy where I lost my mom to a really aggressive cancer when I was really young. Um, Oh, it's okay, thanks. But had some amazing therapists that like really helped me work through a lot of that, and I think that if they weren't there, like I wouldn't be where I am today and. know, as a therapist it's important to understand your limitations and you can't help everyone. not how that works. But really being able to work with people in such a like intimate way such a fulfilling experience. And I like feel really, really lucky that it's a job. 'cause it doesn't always feel like work, you know?
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124We have some, some things in common.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Oh,
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124I, I didn't take accounting, but math was my forte and the only class I ever failed in college was like an entry level math class, so knew that STEM was not my, journey
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Understood.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Also, I grew up in a very religious household. A lot of people don't know that either. And so when you were sharing that, I was like, whoa, I never made that connection. That maybe some of my like deep rooted people pleasing, origins come from being a member of the church and being very active in the church. And I've made connections to like religion, and shame because I, I often felt shame for.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124sins that I committed as a human growing up. But like the people pleaing too. Yeah, to your point, like a lot of it is like servitude and making sure that you're being quote like good and then never wanting to like disappoint people or let them down. And so sometimes doing that, you know, at the detriment of my own wellbeing was a common, I think, trope or theme that started pretty young in my life and to this day. I really want to understand how that can impact someone and like what we can do if we're still finding that we are sometimes putting other people's needs before others when it's unhealthy. So thank you for sharing all of that with us.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124course. Yeah. I, I think it is kind of like an interesting connection that I didn't make myself either till later on in life, like one of my first therapists was like, oh, you don't have any boundaries. And I was kind of like, where did that come from? What are you talking about? What is a boundary? 'cause this was like 15 years ago and kind of trying to understand like, oh, where did this come from? And a lot of working through, like understanding where the people pleasing comes from is like finding the root of it. A lot of it, you know, in therapy is working through trauma or what we like to call relational or attachment wounds.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124I mean, that's a beautiful segue. Let's get into it. So what is people pleasing really about like. Mentioned getting to like the origin or the roots of where it comes from. I know it's a very like general question, but what do you find most common when you, interview clients or you work with your clients around
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124their people pleasing stems from?
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah. Like simply put, you know, people pleasing involves like prioritizing other people's needs and desires above your own. but often what I find is that it stems from this fear of rejection or this need for approval, so. Individuals that have some sort of relational or attachment wounds may believe that by pleasing others, they can secure love and acceptance, which is hard because we all wanna be loved and accepted. So it's kind of like making sure that like I'm liked and like I'm good. But in doing that, we're denying like our own needs or emotions or values or whatever that is. And so that can lead to like things like resentment, anger.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124I'm nodding rigorously over here
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124yes,
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124because what I found growing up, and even to this day, a lot of the people pleasing that I would do to your point is in relation to simply pleasing other people for that love and acceptance, feeling as though I needed to earn people's love and acceptances. For me and a common theme like the, like me simply being me is not enough. Like I have to make other people happy and forego my own needs at times. But then to that point around the resentment, like I would people please, I. So hard that afterwards I would feel resentful towards that person because I simply didn't put that boundary in place, or I didn't uphold my boundaries that I set. And so someone's asking me to do something and I don't wanna do it, I'm still going to say yes, even though I don't want to say yes, and now I'm secretly harboring. Anger or resentment for the simple fact that like I didn't maybe communicate properly or I went against my own boundaries. And so I think that is so important to note because you don't feel good when you people please. Like that's the thing, and now I feel depleted. Now my energy bank is completely empty and you know, it doesn't even feel good is the point I'm making here, where it's like you think that by being a people pleaser, you're doing the right thing, but then it doesn't feel good and it doesn't feel right internally.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Oh yeah, that's kind of like the number one like emotion I have people identify is like, is there like some anger resentment here? Because is it someone actually doing something wrong or are you not honoring like your own needs and you're kind of putting them above yourself when you're already like depleted and burnt out? So yeah, I think it's a really important thing to like assess for and like look for in these types of relationships.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Agreed. And so I'm wondering what are maybe some like signs that we can look for in terms of feeling like. We are potentially people pleasing because I think sometimes like, you know, being a part of a community or just wanting to be a good fill in the blank person, friend, family member, sister, like whatever it may be. Like you want to, you know, be helpful to towards other people. But what are some signs that maybe it's gone beyond just being nice or being helpful to actually being, A form of people pleasing that is going to then potentially spiral into resentment or anger or depletion.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah, so at like a base level, you know, it's saying no to people or like difficulty saying no and overcommitting yourself. I think it also comes out in like excessive, like apologizing. I've noticed that a lot and like being really uncomfortable if someone is like mad
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124I.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124or upset with you and trying to like fix it. Does that sound something like, I feel like I relate to that a lot like
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Absolutely.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124have anyone mad at me and like it makes me uncomfortable, but then once I apologize, I'm like, wait a minute. No. I was actually really upset and I didn't honor my needs or my feelings. And now I have like the resentment we were talking about towards this person, when in reality it's kind of like my fault
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124didn't honor myself.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124yeah. When you mentioned, overly apologizing,
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124I thought that was a byproduct of just being a woman for so long, like.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124yes, patriarchy is real and yes. And people pleasing also.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah, I, I just thought that, you know, I had to always be agreeable, smile, nod, and say yes, even if I didn't wanna, and then the apology mode, I still work on this. This is something that I am actively, consistently working on, which is not apologizing for every little thing. And I don't know if this is. Similar to maybe how you feel, but like sometimes when I apologize, it's just a natural reaction, something that I've learned. And I don't even mean it. Like I'm not actually, sorry, I'm just so used to being like, oh, sorry, sorry. Like, you know, or wanting to fix it. Or to your point, like feeling uncomfortable with other people, maybe feeling. A way towards me, a negative feeling towards me. And even if it's not real, it's sometimes perceived because I have never, I shouldn't say never, but I can't always, you know, confirm that this person's actually angry with me. It's just me assuming that because I didn't say yes. To whatever the thing was that they wanted from me, that that means automatically that they are upset with me, and then that either leads me to say yes or, you know, apologize for my boundary or setting that boundary.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah, I mean, I think that we're kind of wired, especially if you have some sort of trauma to like avoid conflict. So apologizing is the quickest way to Disarm someone and be like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You know? Like, please don't be mad at me. And then like keep peace. But then it's kind of that later reflection where you go, oh man, I did not actually want to apologize. And I think it's important to note as women too, if we look at the way that women. Are treated versus men. A lot of times we are conditioned to apologize. I always think of like email examples. You know how they say women use a lot of exclamation points and we're like so sorry for the delay, and men are just like, where is this?
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Yes. Oh.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Uh,
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Perfect example. I'm still an exclamation mark queen over here, smiley face.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Same. I love to make people feel comfortable, but also, you know, it's okay to, like, sometimes I challenge myself. I'm like, don't do a smiley or drop an exclamation point. You can do Thank you. With a period. It doesn't have to be an exclamation
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Exactly. Exactly. It's just I, 'cause I'm always assuming that people will misinterpret the message via email, via text, and I'm like, I have to make it super clear that I am super agreeable and everything's great and I want you to feel good. And it's like you can be direct and it doesn't necessarily come across as rude or offending someone. I wanna touch on something you mentioned before, which is this idea of around attachment wounds or trauma. Because so many people, I think listening to this podcast can resonate with past traumas, especially related to addiction or related to, any type of codependency with a substance. And then like, I think even beyond that, like in recovery, I. So many like myself, still struggle because maybe we've committed past grievances or past actions that were not right. And I can even make a connection here to the people pleasing because I would use alcohol in a way that would allow me to. Lose myself or lower my inhibitions. I would then, you know, act out and out of character for me was like, being rude to people or sometimes even getting aggressive. And then the next day when you're faced with those realities, you immediately go into apology mode. Then you kind of feel guilty. And then I'm not saying that other people take advantage of that all the time, but I did feel a semblance of like, well, now I have to be extra nice and now I have to be extra agreeable because I was wrong to begin with. And so I'm just wondering if you found any connections in your work around people who. Have suffered with trauma, and it doesn't necessarily have to be related to drinking, but that's just something that I resonate with. But just around trauma or attachment wounds and how that may fuel people pleasing tendencies.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Oh yeah, I definitely think they're like connected very closely. So like with people pleasing behaviors, when they are linked to trauma, it's usually involving some sort of abandonment or neglect, right? 'cause we're trying to get people to stay. I always say like, you're anxious, attachment is like begging to be chosen.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Literally when you said that, I got chills. Seriously, because I've studied a little bit around attachment theory, reading the book, attached for example, and I can identify as being more anxious. Anxious style, attachment. And to your point, it is a very much pick me energy. Like, choose me, stay with me, don't leave me, and I can root that back to you. You know, classic textbook daddy issues like,
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124feeling once again as mentioned, like I had to earn someone's love by being. The best or being agreeable or always doing the right thing or always saying yes. So yeah, I very much relate to that. Do you find that anxious attachment people, and also do you mind sharing a little bit more around that? If people dunno what we're talking about, but like what that anxious attachment style do you find? I'm sorry that that anxious attachment style.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124people are more prone to be people pleasers than say like the opposite, which is the avoidant or even securely attached people.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah, I definitely do. And from an attachment lens, it's basically like simply put. If as children we experienced inconsistent care, emotional unavailability, or even things like if we had to like perform to get attention or affection, we can develop these attachment or relational wounds is what I like to call it. You know, it's usually labeled as like anxious attachment style. I like to say attachment wounds or relational wounds because I do think it's hard to put one person into, or like. Everyone into that box, right? Because I also think that different people trigger different attachment styles, right?
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Yes.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124you have someone that's consistent with you and showing up for you, and like, you don't have to question if you're safe, may have been anxious in one relationship and now you feel secure. But people pleasing can be a way of like maintaining closeness and avoiding, rejection or conflict.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Mm.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124I guess like things I think about is like, if I'm easygoing and always agreeable, everyone will like me. Or if I say no and I have needs, someone might get upset with me or leave me. And
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Right.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124kind of creates that pattern of suppressing your own needs to keep other people happy. I think another important part of it that's kind of, I don't wanna say it's not newer, but you know, your therapist might ask you like, where do you feel that in your body? I. Have you ever had like that, uh, like a
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Yes,
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124that? Yes.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124a therapy therapist asked me that before. Yes,
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah. Some people are like, why are you doing that? But it really is like about your nervous system and regulating it.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124right.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124so a lot of time with people pleasing. I. It triggers this response called fawning. We think of like fight or flight, but there's also fawn and it's a stress response, and it's when you're faced with a relational tension and your nervous system might default to appeasement to regain a sense of safety. The other kind of systems, I won't make it too long or boring, but we have the ventral vagal system, which is like safe, calm, connected, open to others. We have the sympathetic, which is like fight or flight. That's where we sense danger. Our body gets activated. We might feel anxious, angry, on edge, ready to like fight or run. And then we have the dorsal vagal and that's when things feel like overwhelming or hopeless shut down, that like flooding happens. We go numb, disconnected, so. The fawn response in all of this is like a survival strategy that's triggered by the perception of threat. So, when a person seeks safety through this appeasing or pleasing others, it is rooted in the ventral vagal system, which is like the safe, calm one, but it gets like hijacked, if that makes sense, by stress.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Got it.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124the fawning is prioritizing others' needs to avoid conflict reduction harm. It like activates both the dorsal and sympathetic system? I describe it as, it's like you're hitting like a gas pedal and pulling an emergency brake at the same time.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Ah, got it. Jerk motion back and forth.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah. You're like, uh, and that can, I mean, not only like emotionally, but like physically that can have effects on our nervous system. So yeah, it's important to like not do things like that in order to like maintain your emotional and physical, like wellbeing.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124That makes so much sense and.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124was a lot.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124No, that was great. And when you do ask clients or if someone's faced with that question of like, okay, well where does that stem or where do you feel that viscerally in your body? What responses do you typically hear? Like where do people report?
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Hmm. A lot of times it is like chest, like tight chest, shoulders, gut, a lot like kind of that sinking feeling. I always say it's like, you know when you go on a rollercoaster, if you've been on one like up and then your stomach drops. It's kind of that feeling.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah.
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124So
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124And,
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124where it comes up.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124And do you find Alex, that a lot of it is. Based off of concrete data, like they've actually communicated a boundary, for example, and that person has rejected them. Or do you think a lot of it actually stems from perception? Like what we perceive or anticipate someone will say or do? Should we actually say no or uphold a boundary?
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124It's usually a perception, right? especially if we do have that trauma, right? Because our brain and our body is wired to be prepared for the worst, so. If we identify a need and in the past needs weren't met, going to someone and communicating that our body and our nervous system is telling us like, this is dangerous. Like, you will not get this need met. You can't communicate that
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124I imagined that was the response because I am drawn from personal
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124way.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124anecdote,
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124but I wanted to be sure. Yes. So I would love to kind of get into, now that we've identified some of the ways in which people pleasing comes up for people and where it stems from and how it impacts different nervous system responses, or just the way in which we feel,
alex--she-her-_2_04-13-2025_121124Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_2_04-13-2025_121124how can we start breaking some of those patterns? Asking for a friend, AKA me. But yeah, how can we start to sort of get out of that cycle of people pleasing.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Yeah, so breaking the pattern of people pleasing, ugh. I think the first thing is identifying like. Where am I people pleasing, like where am I feeling that resentment that we talked about earlier, like are some areas or relationships that need a little more attention. Think engaging in that self-reflection is helpful in understanding the underlying motivations. And obviously I'm gonna advocate for therapy can kind of help. But you know, I think that the first thing is kind of like saying no without feeling that guilt and. Let me say that. it's not easy. And also when I'm talking about like saying no setting boundaries, all these things, I think it's important to kind of acknowledge that we live in like a capitalist society. And some of these boundaries I may talk about are not, you know, we can't all just quit our jobs and be like, Nope, I, I'm not showing up to work today because my boss sucks. Right? And so I just, that disclaimer I think is important. But. In terms of like breaking this pattern, I think start small like really find one or two things where maybe you feel a little overextended or burnt out and go like, okay, like can I say no to like these plans or I. You know, this person did something that really hurt me and instead of apologizing, first communicating, Hey, like, that really hurt my feelings. Can we talk about it? I always tell people, you don't have to be nice, but you can be kind.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337I like that.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Yeah. you don't have to apologize, like navigate with kindness, but also like stand firm in your decision and like what you're feeling.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337Yeah.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337And remember that like declining something, like a request from someone doesn't mean. You're rejecting that person. I think that a lot of times as a people pleaser, you fear rejection, so you don't wanna reject someone else. And so there's that fear in it, but it doesn't always mean rejection. Right.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337What I'm hearing from you, Alex, is a lot of it sounds like conflating different ideas and not necessarily being able to distinguish. For example, you mentioned being nice with being kind. I think I. As a people pleaser, I was so concerned with being nice all the time, and it's like, what does nice really mean? What does that do for someone? I'd much rather be a kind person than a nice person because I think sometimes when you're being nice, it's not always authentic. Authentic to who you are or you know, it might be actually a bit more because you are trying to. Give off this persona, or you are trying to come off a certain way, but like ultimately I think being kind is the better way to be because kindness is just an extension of like, I can deliver truth with kindness. Right? I don't need to pacify or I don't need to forego what I actually want because I'm just trying to be nice all the time to everyone. A light bulb went off for me where I'm like, okay. I think for years I was just trying to be the nice girl, play the nice girl, but like I.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337Doesn't always get you where you need to go. I think kindness is something that you can extend to anyone at any point in time without being untrue to yourself. And then like also not conflating, you also mentioned I. So I'm just thinking about completing what my needs really entail and understanding, and that may go back to the deep reflection piece, which is like, what do I actually need? Like what do I need and what am I missing? And then communicate that to other people. I think that's another key piece that I. Often would not do, I would not properly communicate. And so once again, to avoid those resentments that we can form because we don't communicate and we just go with the flow and be the nice girl, Easy going like that I think is integral because if you don't communicate. People are not mind readers, people may not know, where you actually stand. Going back to the authenticity piece, for me it was like, yeah, I come across as being super nice, but now I'm like, am I actually nice? 'cause I have resentments, I'm actually angry, so I'm not communicating what I need. And therefore it's come across as like, yes, yes, I'm a yes girl, but like now I'm also like burnt out and tired and sad because I have. Overextended myself, so I appreciate everything that you shared there.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Yeah. I mean, I love that, like you bringing up needs, right? Like. I think that when we engage in people pleasing, we don't actually know what we need sometimes because we've spent most of our time accommodating others and their needs. And then it kind of like affects our sense of self. And then that's, yeah. Where that resentment, anger, all those things come in. 'cause we don't feel like we know who we are at times.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337We don't. Exactly. And I think that was a big part of it. Like I didn't have as much autonomy in what I wanted because I didn't do the work. I just kind of went with the flow and didn't actually understand that I need time or I need space, or I need rest. That's a key step, like you need to get clear around your own priorities and not just default to saying yes to everything. I'm wondering too, because you brought up this point, I wanna practice as an exercise like saying no without feeling guilty. Where do we begin? How does one do that? Because I think that is uncomfortable for people. Do you have any tips for how to say no or how to practicing? No, I like what you mentioned before around like starting small and maybe picking one area of your life. Say that be romantic relationships or work, you know, dynamics Without losing your job guys. But like thinking through like how we can start to prioritize or find ways to say no without, guilt or then apologizing because we said no guilty.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Yeah. Yeah. Man, I feel like it's important to always remind yourself your needs are just as important as other people's. And also like, y'all are not gonna love this one. But I think that it's learning to get comfortable sitting with discomfort, right? I'm sure some people have heard the quote, the only way out is through. And you know, sometimes that's what it is. You have to kind of sit with the discomfort. It is about challenging yourself, like in those small ways I said, but challenging yourself, maybe feeling that discomfort and being like, oh God, I did something wrong. But like allowing yourself to really sit through it and like move through it and realize that there can be an alternative outcome. Know, and. I always tell people too, when you're like thinking about these thoughts and you start like having maybe thoughts of like judging yourself or saying no, or like, oh, I need to do this. I say like, turn to curiosity over criticism and like sit with yourself and like notice the uncomfortable thoughts. Like really if you're like, I shouldn't have done that. I need to be there for this person. They're gonna hate me, da da da da. Like, notice it. And be like, where is this coming from? Whose voice is like saying these to me? Is it my own? Is it this person's like, what's going on in my head? And really like slowing down. I think that other ways, you know, therapists love journaling, but I do think that sometimes like getting thoughts down on paper and like really organizing how you feel and your needs and evaluating like, hey, like what areas of my life need some attention?
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337Yep.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Can be helpful. But really I think it's about sitting with discomfort. Unfortunately, people don't love that, but it's part of this like process.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337we are familiar with sitting in discomfort. Trust me.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Yeah. Not fun.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337it's still something that I have to work through, but it is something that, is difficult as mentioned because it's awkward. It's like I just,
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337so
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337I even hate the awkward silences where it's like, I'm gonna say this thing and now. You know, this person's disappointed, or I'm assuming they're disappointed or mad or whatever. And instead of immediately being like, I'm so sorry. Just being like, okay, this is what it is. Like, I
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337that is very valid and holds true as a guiding principle in life, right? Like, be okay with discomfort because it's bound to come up in, in every area at some point in your life.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Totally. And something that I think has been. Helpful for us in terms of communication, but so bad in this area is like texting, right? Because I will hear all the time, like, this person took two hours to respond, or like they haven't responded yet, and there's this like thing that triggers, because you know, usually when you're talking to someone in person, you get that response right away and you
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337Great.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337sit with that discomfort. Now you can text someone and they can wait five days to
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337Yep.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337which can trigger you like nobody's business. So yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337Yeah, the texting thing is so real. then you start to make up a million in one scenarios in your head around how this person hates you and they have a burn book now of you. And it's like, no, maybe,
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337yes.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337maybe you just need to wait and not send another text. Follow up text. Like, actually I take back my boundary actually.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Nevermind. I'm so sorry.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337So sorry. Accept me.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337That's so helpful and that's something that I think we can all benefit from practicing, which is just that wait time and recognizing that once you set that boundary and once you communicate clearly, then you kind of like release it into the. Right. It's, it's no longer on you. And like we can't control other people's responses to things. So even if someone is upset with you based off of what you've communicated, like that's not not my business, right? Like there's nothing I can do. Like they need to go talk to their therapist. They need to go journal in their notebook. I think that part is important for me to recognize too, because people pleaser default mode is like, I wanna be liked, I wanna be accepted. And so even if. My worst fears come true and this person is pissed at me. That does not mean that I need to regress and go back on my word or my word to myself. Basically
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Right, right.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-13-2025_123337that releasing, releasing is hard.
alex--she-her-_3_04-13-2025_123337Yeah. It is.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519So Alex, I wanted to kind of touch on this being obviously the Sober Butterfly podcast. People pleasing coming up in early sobriety, especially because I think so often when people, you know, go through a big life transition, like giving up at war, just life, big life transitions, period. There is a sense of, identity crisis because you're, evolving or you're metamorphosizing into this different version of self and then other people around you need to kind of adjust to that or catch up to that. And I think personally for me, in early sobriety, I found that my people pleasing really flared up because I was really trying to show other people that I was still this fun go lucky, carefree girl, and.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519I was really working on my sobriety and semi communicating that I now recognize with perspective, I could have, you know, been a bit more direct with like, Hey guys, like, I don't wanna be triggered. you know, this is hard. But the point I'm making in terms of early sobriety and I. People pleasing is that I wanna kind of touch on people pleasing as a form of self-sabotage because I find that so often when you are in such a vulnerable state in that transition phase and you are still saying yes to things that may be triggering to you, whether that involves drinking or going to the bar or not, just like in general, you're in a space where it's like you do need to really pour into yourself. And so if anything, you need to be more selfish, I think in your early society. But so often we find that people don't do that for a number of reasons. So I'm just wondering from you as a therapist, have you a seen this, have you seen evidence of people who feel like, you know, they still want to be X version of self or this version of self amongst their social peer groups? And also how people pleasing can lead to more adverse effects than we realize as a form of self-sabotage in the long term.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that a lot of times, like getting sober involves a lot of vulnerability, right? Like substances usually provide this shield, So now I'm sure you feel kind of like exposed, right? Like I'm trying to go. yeah, like you're trying to go out, you're trying to like be the same person, but you don't have the shield that you once used. And there's kind of this heightened need for external validation at times. And these people pleasing behaviors can intensify as we're trying to like maintain these relationships. I think it's important, like when it comes up with like drinking and stuff, I even think about, so. When I was like in school and grad school and stuff, I was a bartender, so I saw drinking all the time. And one thing that would always make me deeply uncomfortable is like when people would like force other people to take shots.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519yeah.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519I would see someone be like, no, I'm, I'm good. Like I'm not. And the person would be like, no, no, no, they want one. And I was like. No, they, they literally said no.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519And it would make me so deeply uncomfortable, but I would see kind of how people pleasing can come into it. Like, oh, I've already decided this is my limit, but someone is like pushing me over the edge and I wanna be agreeable and so I'm gonna do this.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah,
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519I, I know it's like a small example,
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519that's a big example. That's profound because
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519I would be that girl pressuring people to take.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Hey.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519And I've also been in the same situation where like I know my limit and I'm like, dude, I cannot, like, I cannot have a shot, but like I've always taken the shot because yeah, it was in my face so
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519a perfect example. I guess from the perspective of the person who is forcing someone to take the shot, like. I wanna get into that archetype, it's like, why do we care about what someone else is doing? Is it, it's also a form of like, I don't wanna be the only person taking shots, or I don't wanna be the person that maybe be, you know, deemed as the alcoholic amongst the friend group. So if everyone takes shots, then it doesn't look so bad. I don't know, I'm very curious about it now. Like not even critical, just curious because it's like, dude, like why do you care what other people are drinking?
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519You know, I kind of wonder that myself, and I guess from like a therapeutic lens, I kind of see that as like need to feel like accepted or like have people close. Like if we wanna talk about like maybe it's someone with an anxious attachment style, maybe not. But like, maybe, and like wanting to keep people out or keep the party going because
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519home or something is like lonelier and like, sitting with yourself is hard. So I, I tend to see people who usually kind of push that last shot or people who like wanna keep going and are like, oh, where's the afters? Where's this? And it's
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519AM why are we? And I think there's like some deep-seated loneliness in that,
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519you know, is hard to sit with.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah. I think that's a good read on the situation and I'm wondering. So for people who are sort of in a transition phase, and it does not have to be related to drinking, but if you are trying to become a different or better version of self and you feel beholden to a past version of self that you don't resonate with any more, do you have any tips for people who are just like, maybe their friend group or their social circles don't reflect where they're going? I. In terms of people pleasing and holding onto those relationships, do you think there's room for that or do you think that in general, like a rule of thumb could, can be just to prioritize yourself and take the space?
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519I think that unfortunately in getting sober, like. You're gonna lose some people who like, especially if they have the same lifestyle, like it's no longer gonna serve you. I think that it's important to find out what you like and like, what makes you feel grounded. Letting go of like that people pleasing allows you to kind of figure out like, what do I actually like? What are my goals? What are my values? What are activities that like, resonate with me personally instead of like. What I used to do to make other people happy, and that's kind of like where you find the more authentic self. I'm not saying it's easy like that. That's very difficult, especially if your friends don't respect your decisions. I've seen that a lot, right? Like I'm choosing to get sober and people make it about them. Instead of like supporting their friend. And that's a really hard thing to go through 'cause you're losing the substance that you've relied on for so long and then you're potentially losing relationships that for a period have really been your form of connection.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah. Yeah. That part about people, making it about them. Even to this day, like I'll meet people and tell them I can drink,
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519man,
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519and they're like, oh, well I've never had a problem with alcohol. And I'm like.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519what an odd thing to
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Like, like literally they'll be like, like, tell me the most, like random things. And it's like, oh, I only have two a day. Like I can have two glasses of wine. I'm like, well, good for you. I could not, so
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519what is this about? But yeah, I think it's an insecurity like that people have sometimes and they about themselves as opposed to just like, oh, okay, cool. Good for you. It's a very strange dynamic at times, but. I, I like everything that you shared because yeah, it is easier said than done, but it sounds like, like the clarity piece is the most important piece, which is going back to like your why and understanding like what you're doing and why you're doing it. Communicating that with other people and then taking intel of like how people respond to discern whether or not you can spend time with those people,
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519I totally agree, and I think, again, it's kind of sitting with that discomfort because what I hear a lot is sometimes people say that people don't respect the not drinking unless they're like, oh, I'm doing dry January or something, and everyone's like, oh yeah, yeah, cool, cool,
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Or if you say like, I'm not drinking right now, people are like, why? What happened? What's going on? And it's like, that's like a. Like that's the end of the
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519yeah.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519not drinking. And so it is kind of sitting with that discomfort and being able to be like, Nope. Like stop asking questions. I'm not drinking. Please don't push me. Like whatever it is.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah, don't push me. And I think for people pleasers, we wanna be accepted so much. We've talked about that. And so it feels like you're a social like leper, like it just feels like, oh my gosh, no one's gonna like me anymore. And that goes back to the self sabotage piece because
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519we can just. Decide that this is not the path we should be on because we're so
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519used to appeasing other people, and I think that's just like the message I want people to understand is like when you say yes to other people, you have to make sure you're not saying no to yourself and your goals and your dreams and you're
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519love that.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah, truly because that's the part I think also that can serve as a lens. Or a framework for people to understand, because you can be a kind person, you can be nice, right? And it's. Create harm for you, then yes. Help someone move. Yes. Pick someone up from the airport. Yes, these things. But if you know that you don't have the energy or the bandwidth or the whatever in your arsenal, in your toolbox to be able to show up for people in that way, then that needs to be clear and communicated. And so I guess my question for you is like. I like to portray people in a positive light as much as possible. Like I'm a, a glass half full girly and I like to assume the best intentions other people. But I'll be also real with you, Alex, and say, I do believe that people take advantage of people pleasers. That's not groundbreaking. I'm sure they do. Like I know that a lot of people see me as being a people pleaser, and oh, Nadine will say yes, of course. Nadine will say yes to the most outrageous things at times. Even after I've set a boundary, and so my question to you is, how can we identify those people, like, how can we start to like take note of like, oh, this person is taking advantage, and then how can we double down on our boundary? Because I, I swear to you, like, I'll tell you a little story really quickly so that I have a.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519still a friend, but I remember, this is a couple years ago, I was traveling to Berlin and initially I made plans with this friend to split a hotel in Berlin
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519then didn't really hear from 'em like they were kind of MIA. And so another friend came into the loop. And we decided that we were gonna go ahead and plan a trip together. I had no idea if this other person was even going to Berlin anymore. And then literally like two days before the trip, they were like, oh yeah, I'm, I'm still going. Are you going? And I'm like, yeah, I'm going with this, right? I'm going with this other person. And these other two friends, by the way, did not know them. I was the mutual connection. So. I tell this friend, it was a guy, he's like, well, where are you staying? And I'm like, I'm going to be staying in this part of Berlin. We rented an Airbnb and immediately he was like, oh, well I'm just gonna crash with you guys. And I was like no, because you don't even know this other person. And we paid a pretty penny for this accommodation. And he's just like, well, okay, like fine, 'cause he lived in Berlin for a point in time, so he is like, I'll just,
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Oh,
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519you know.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Cal.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Couch surf with my friends. I was like, cool. I get to Berlin a day before the other friend, and immediately this man shows up at my Airbnb and ends up, long story short, crashing for the first night. And he is like, well, your friend isn't even get here until tomorrow. So I'm like, exhale. Okay, fine. You can stay for this one night.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Mm.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519And then my friend ends up coming. Then he basically befriends my other friend in hopes of being able to stay with us and does so for like the majority of the trip just slept on the couch. And I felt so bad for my friend because it was like my people pleasing, and the lack of upholding my own boundary affected my other friend who was like, yeah, she was cool, but like also I was like, I feel bad because we spent money and like this guy is just living on our couch for this time being. So I guess I'm sharing all of that. To ask you, like in a situation where it's like you know that someone's taking advantage of you
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519you still let it slide, like what can we do to prevent those situations from occurring? Or like, how can we navigate people pleasing with people who are taking advantage of people pleasing, if that makes sense.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Ooh, yes. Wow. That story hit me. I feel like I have stories kind of similar where I've just compromised and been like, okay, because I, I, we wanna avoid conflict, right? We're like, this person is pushing us and they want to stay. You know, your friend, he wanted to stay here, but didn't respect your time, didn't like follow up with you. I think in terms of like avoiding this, it's hard, right? Because a lot of times once we identify that someone taking advantage of us, already like, we are like deep into the relationship. We have that resentment. We're at that point where we're like, we wanna say
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519I always tell people like setting boundaries. If it's with someone, you have never set a boundary with you, setting a boundary is going to shock them. They are gonna be like, what is wrong with you? Why are you saying no? Why can't you help me? Like all the things and they're going to guilt you and potentially like flip it on
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519So there is potential for that. And there is a way again, like being kind of setting a boundary and just being like, Hey, you know, before I was okay with this, now I've decided that I'm overextended. I'm at capacity. I can't do this. I. As well as something I have my clients do. Sometimes I say like, what's on your serving platter? Which is like I say like in a relationship where we're feeling this, I'm like, okay, like what are you serving to this person? It's like, oh, I'm giving like my time support, loyalty whatever it is. And then I'm like, what are you getting back? Like if they were gonna like literally serve you a platter. And sometimes it's like. Nothing. Or sometimes you know, there's like things and you're like, okay, like maybe it is mutual. But a lot of the times when they have that resentment, not getting a lot back. And so that's when it's like, can I communicate with this person and figure out a resolution and set some new boundaries? Or is this a relationship that I need to reevaluate and I might potentially lose, but am I losing it in my best interest?
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519I love that so much, but is on your serving plate.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519I.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah, that, that's a beautiful exercise because so often I think we pour so much into. To other people. And then we don't necessarily, because we don't always like to think of things as transactional, but in the grand scheme of things, like if you really think about it and do like, not even just quantitative, it's qualitative, right? If you just look at what's on that plate and like what you're getting back, it's like, yeah, if you're getting in the bare minimum to nothing in return, why are you overextending yourself? Because that's what I was doing. I was overextending myself.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519to the point where I could have even negatively impacted my relationship with the other friend because she had nothing to do with it. And now she's, you know, living with this, with my lack of, you know, boundary of set.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519And her and I actually had some deep conversations around it because I apologized. Of course, being a people pleaser apologized extensively to her, and I was just like, I'm so sorry. Like I really did say no. And you know, she's a bit of a people pleaser too, so she was like, well, you know, he's very good at it. She's like, he's so good at shooting his shot. That's just how he is. Like I actually don't think that he was expecting you, or like maybe he was expecting you to say yes, but like he's so, he's so good at it, like shooting his shot, like he's okay with missing, like he's just the type of person that's gonna go after it no matter what. And like, he's not afraid to hear No, that's why he's asking like these outrageous things. The way she framed that, I was like, yeah, you're right. Like. If I had said no, like I think he still would've talked to me she's like, yeah, that's how he is. I can tell. 'cause like we spend so much time together because he was staying with us. Like, she's like, I can just tell how he navigates. Like he's going to ask no matter what. And I'm like, yeah, you're absolutely right. So that was just a moment in time where I like had some regrets because I recognized that my losing not only impacted me, but someone else. That was a few years ago. So like I'm still, like I said, semi.
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519still working on it. Yeah. But I think that, like, I'm sure you've heard that quote teach people how to treat you right? So if you are someone that is always overextending yourself, that person, whether it's you know, or not, like, knows that you'll always be there. So they will take advantage of that and it may not have like a mal intention to it, but. It, it's gonna happen. So you have to set those boundaries early on. And I always say like, the relationship, you know, like balance the scale sometimes, like it goes a little bit one way. 'cause sometimes someone needs a little support. But it, it should like balance out most of the time where like, you are getting what you're putting out.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519I love that when you said that, I thought of a million other examples, anecdotes, but I'll spare you the details. But yes, I think you teach people how to treat you. Is. Is
alex--she-her-_4_04-13-2025_124519Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_4_04-13-2025_124519important. And I think like there are many teachable moments. So just because the relationship started, you know, the inception was you always being available to them and never saying no doesn't mean that that needs to be the constant or like that tenure must continue for the rest of the relationship. Like we can reset at any point in time. And then like if someone just can't handle like this is you saying no, we're setting boundaries. Then to your earlier point, like reevaluate. If the relationship may even be worth it. So thank you for that.
the-sober-butterfly_6_04-15-2025_073609We'll get back to the episode in just a moment, but I wanted to take a quick pause to shout out today's sponsor, salt River Therapy. You guys already know therapy was the first real step I took on my sober journey. It gave me the space to understand myself and start healing, and I truly believe everyone deserves that support. Salt River Therapy is a boutique practice based in Brooklyn offering compassionate, affirming care, both in person and virtually across New York and New Jersey. They specialize in everything from anxiety and low self-esteem to identity, grief and trauma. You name it. And the best part, their therapist actually get you. They don't just help you understand what's going on. They work with you to make real change. If you're ready to prioritize your mental health, head to salt river therapy.com to schedule a free consultation. Tell them the sober butterfly sent you. Alright, let's get back into it.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Okay guys, welcome back to the Sober Butterfly. I've learned so much from Alex, and I hope you guys have as well we are just going to wind down, Alex, with a little game. Is that okay with you?
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Of course. I love games.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Okay, so this is a game reclaiming your power, because I think that is a great theme that we're learning, right? We can always reclaim our power, and so it'll just be a quick, rapid fire question game. Are you down to play?
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yes, I am down.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Okay. My first question, what is a boundary you're proud of setting? Recently, I.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Ooh. Okay. This is, this was a hard one for me. But I recently had to set a boundary with like a very close, like, family member. And it was something I was really nervous about because this person is going through a lot in their life and I wanted to be supportive and I think kind of being a therapist in the family, people come to you and unload at times, which I. happy to support, but it was something that I was once okay talking about with, and then I realized it was like really bothering me and so I went to this person and I said, Hey, I'm here to support you. I always wanna be here for you, but like this specific topic, I can't, I. I can't support you in it anymore. Like I need you to turn to like other friends, a therapist, something like, they were really understanding about it and I was really thankful. So it was a great experience and I think that that kind of like heals some of those people pleasing wounds when you have these success experiences
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531I love that snaps to you for setting that boundary. And I think it's really hard especially when it's family, but also just anyone close to you, especially when you know they're going through something
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531I like that you mentioned it was just like a talking session because so often I think we think of people pleasing in the sense of like, I'm gonna give you my time or give you my energy, or give you this thing. But if someone's talking to you about something that is making you uncomfortable, like that is. Important to note and then also communicate. So I find when you said that, I was like, yeah, there have been many situations I've found myself in with mutual friends who've fallen out and me being like kind of the person in the middle hearing both sides and it's like, I don't wanna be in the mix. Like this is uncomfortable.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531gosh.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531sorry to like kind of get off, but like topic, but like, did you watch White Lotus?
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Did I watch luck?
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531When you said that I, the three women, I was like the stuck in the middle. Oh my gosh. I don't know why. A friendship with three women, it's
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Well, which one do you think is stuck in the middle of the one from Dallas? I dunno, any names?
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531I, I think the one, yes, the Texan one. She might have been stuck in the middle, but I don't know. It was like
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531She was like the most toxic to me actually. Like I love all of them individually, but like.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531people
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531She was the, oh, isn't that funny? The people pleaser is the one I like the least. Ah, you're right, you are right. She was the people pleaser in that group.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531right. Because she would say something negative to the other one about the other one, and then she tried to keep the peace. She
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Yes.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531conflict. She didn't wanna have real conversations.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Ooh, I feel like I'm looking in the mirror. I don't like that because I am that person in friend groups or it's just like. I, you know, I'll be honest, I've stirred the pot, and then
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531to a person like confiding, but also like I should know better not to like, say something like the moment where she mentioned that the actress hooked up with the,
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531oh. The
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531butler. Right.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531yeah. Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531And she's just like, tried to play it off like this haha moment. And then the other girl from New York freaked out. It's like, yeah, she should have known better. That that was gonna get some kind of real reaction, but it was like, oh, don't say anything. Don't do anything. No, it's fine. That's,
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531was like, I thought you'd think it was funny. I was like, why is that funny? I was like, that's insane. Like she knew she was. Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531yeah. It's like maybe she just wanted in that moment, a way to forge a connection or have that moment of just like, oh, like. We're, we're bonding because we're talking about a situation,
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531but then not thinking long term about the impact that it would have on the friend, and then wanting to avoid conflict Yeah, I resonate with that. Like, I don't like conflict, but yeah. Then don't start anything. Don't want.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531I know, right?
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531yeah, she was the people pleaser. I didn't even make that connection. Yeah. So don't do that guys.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yes.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Okay. My second question for you is, what is your favorite form of self care?
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Ooh, I mean, boundaries.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Mm-hmm.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531one, that is a form of self care. It is a way of taking care of yourself. But in general, I am a big, like massage bathhouse person. I,
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Bath. I love bath.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531I, I do go to bathhouse. Yes. Sometimes I go
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Oh, I thought you said bath. What did say before?
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531No, I said bathhouse. I said I like bath houses, but also
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Oh, okay.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531the actual bathhouse. Yes. I also have been there and love that. Those are great. I love a cold plunge, love asana. I. A massage person. I like feeling really relaxed. Things that are rejuvenating and I also think that spending time with people that like make you feel safe is really a form of self care people you can like
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Oh,
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531out with. Watch White Lotus with Chill. I've had really rejuvenating and a form of self-care as well.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531I love that. And I also love massages.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yes.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531mostly saunas. Like I'll do a cold plunge after the sauna. That is like peak self care for me.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531But just luxuriating
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Is your love language, physical touch? I'm just curious because mine is,
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531that makes sense. But no, it's actually not. Mine is The actions one. Oh my gosh.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Acts of service.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Acts of service. Why did I just blank on that? Yes, acts of service. But an act of service could also be like booking a massage for me.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531I above plus food, but boundaries is the ultimate form of self care. I love that. And it just reminds me to get clear around your boundaries because we use the beware for like boundaries. Boundaries, but like what are those boundaries? Like you have to identify them to know them, to then be able to communicate and uphold them. Because I used to like say boundaries and I'm like, but like what is a boundary? And that actually reminded me, Alex too. It's like I think something that I've learned.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531a girl who likes to avoid conflict, as we've established, something that you can do or someone can do is Make it about, like it being a guiding principle for you. So it's not like me, it's like kind of depersonalized. It's like, no, it's not necessarily like I don't want to help you move. For example, on Saturday morning, it's like, no, like my guiding principle is every Saturday morning I have to, for example. Use that time to de clean my apartment, or this is a bad example, but like, or like go to, or it's like my time to like decompress from the week. Something that I've set for myself that is non-negotiable. I think sometimes when you do that, it's like, I totally would, but like this is something that it's a principle. You don't break it something I have to do. Sometimes that helps in case people are like, I can't say no, but it's like, don't say no to yourself like this.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531No, that's a great example. And I tell people, I know this sounds counterintuitive to like what you were just saying, but it's not. But boundaries are about like yourself. It's not about controlling other people, but like you said, you're like, my boundary is that like on Saturday mornings I have to do this and dah, dah, dah. I'm not telling you. can't do something. I'm saying that like this is like what I need.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Yes.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531I love that. My last question for you is, what is a belief that you have unlearned in therapy?
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Ooh. Not being liked by everyone is not a bad thing.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Hmm.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah. I mean, like, it's not an easy one and I think I'm still working towards that, but it is so important to acknowledge and sit with and realize that like you don't have to be liked in order to be like worthy.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Oh yes.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Yes to that. You don't have to be liked in order to be worthy. I love that so much, and I feel like that's a great way to reclaim your power. And we know that not everyone will like you
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531just because we say that and we, we know that to be true doesn't mean that we live in accordance to that. Like I think. Still as a people pleaser, it's like I do wanna be liked by everyone, but like that's not realistic. That's just not realistic, and I think it's just recognizing that not everyone will like you. And sometimes they'll have legitimate reasons to not like you, and sometimes it could just be because of how you look or because of your voice or because of whatever. Something that like triggers something in them. And it's like you, you also like back to the control thing, like you cannot control other people. So like
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531just have to live my authentic life and be myself because, you know, I'm still not gonna have everyone like me pretending to be nice or pretending to be this version of self to get people to like you. I've been in situations where this is more like in school, but where I basically adopted a different persona to.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Oh yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Fit in or please someone. And then I found out behind my back, the person actually still didn't like me. Like they actually still hated my guts. Those moments served as great learning
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531because I'm like, wow. Like I, I basically pretended to be someone else for this person and did all the things and always said yes, and was always available and was always X, y, z and still. That person didn't like me, so it's like you, you just never gonna get everyone to like you, and that's fine.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah, I've heard so many stories like that and I think as like women too, like growing up like girl clique groups,
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Yes.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531when we're younger, elementary school is such a like important and detrimental part of like how we learn to navigate relationships and kind of that like, oh, you know, I don't know if you had this, but like, you know the one girl that's like the popular girl that like you people please, or you accommodate whatever she's saying to do in order to be liked and then finding out later.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531That is very real. Wow, I spent all this time doing these things for you, and like, you don't even, you don't even mess with me like that. Anyway that has been very helpful. Thank you so much for playing.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Thank
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Our, your power game. And so just to wind down with some final thoughts, I would love to ask you this last question.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531would you tell someone who feels stuck in this pattern of people pleasing? I know that you've shared so much wisdom with us, but just like one final word for anyone who's like. Alex, I am a people pleaser. I don't wanna be a people pleaser. Help me get out of this cycle. I feel stuck. I have to do this to be worthy of love or acceptance. I hate conflict. Like all the things we have gotten into. What's the final thing you would just say? Like to maybe help shake them out of this pattern?
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah. I guess like short, like show yourself the same grace that you're showing other people,
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Ooh.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531why are you being so kind to other people and not to yourself? Like
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Love that.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531I help people sometimes like pull them out and be like, okay. Like what would you say to yourself if you were like a friend or something? Or like, would you ever Actually, one of my friends says the best thing and I love it sometimes if I say something where I'm like, oh, like I feel so ugly today. She goes, don't talk about my friend like that.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531I love that. That that's a good friend. That's beautiful.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah, she's great. And so I'm always like, oh yeah, like I need to be as kind to myself. 'cause I would never say that to her.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Oh yeah. How do I look? Hideous babe.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah. Like, and in that I just mean that like people pleasing, like approach it with like kindness. Don't be hard on yourself. Don't be like, God, I can't believe I've continued to do this. Recognize it and then like start small, like I said, and move with compassion and grace towards yourself.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531I think that is something that we can all learn and remind ourselves, which is give yourself the grace that you give other people,
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Mm-hmm.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531that is, I. It reminds me of a mantra, like, give yourself the love that you seek. And I feel like that's a variation of that and so applicable to this topic of people pleasing. So thank you. Alex.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531of
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531Where can people find you? So if they wanna connect with you and Salt River Therapy, how can we find you?
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531Yeah. So, for the practice, the website is salt river therapy.com. We see adult individuals and couples either virtually or in downtown Brooklyn. We have an office as well. Instagram is Alexandria Therapy. And TikTok, for as long as we have it is Alexandria therapy. So same thing. Yeah.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531I will plug all of that below in the show notes to make it super easy for people to find you. Thank you so much for coming, Alex.
alex--she-her-_5_04-13-2025_130531you, Nadine. This has been awesome.
the-sober-butterfly_5_04-13-2025_130531It's been amazing having you. I've learned so much.
the-sober-butterfly_9_04-15-2025_074953Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the Sober Butterfly Podcast. I hope today's convo with Alexandria Atkinson from Salt River Therapy gave you some powerful insights into the roots of people pleasing and how to begin breaking free from it with compassion and courage. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with a friend. Rate and review the show on Apple or Spotify and hit that follow button so you never miss a new episode. And if you're ready to dig deeper into your own healing, journey, don't forget to check out Salt River therapy@saltrivertherapy.com to schedule a free consultation. You can also connect with me on Instagram at the period Sober Butterfly for more sober lifestyle content and community love. Until next time, remember, your worth is not measured by how much you do for others, especially at the cost of yourself. You are allowed to take up space. You are allowed to say no, and you are always, always enough. Love you guys. Talk soon butterflies. Bye.